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mpbarrett

Penta bits...

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spent an unhappy few minutes trying to get an Allen key to fit a socket screw. After trying all my metric and imperial bits realised that its not a HEX socket but a PENTA socket, 5 sides.....

The pesky socket screw is on the  end of  Mk4 Fiesta (or Mondeo) idle control valve, it controls the shelf opening setting of the valve.
I am sure  there was a good reason for Ford to use an unusual socket but it really is  a pain in the arse.... do we really need yet another socket design....

Still trying to find  a bit to fit it.... very tempted to just drill it out!

cheers

mike

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1 minute ago, Nick Jones said:

Tamper resistant. Supposed to stop you messing with it....,...

Will one of the Torx family do the job?

Nope tried that, its quite a soft socket so might just drill it out. I had never seen Penta sockets before not a lot of bits out there.
As you can guess this all part of search for the perfect idle control valve! Have tried an industrial flow control valve (the engine vacuum forced it closed), another Ford idle control valve that was a very strange design that I still don't understand how it works! And now what looks like the perfect valve from a Mk4 Feista (and Mondeo), it seems to be able to close completely when unpowered but set by the screw....

mike

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It's a bit like the ever-growing list of cable connections to computer, laptops and phones - USB, mini USB, micro USB, hdmi, micro hdmi, USB C, etc ad infinitum. Just....... why??

My Dell laptop no longer has an hdmi outlet and came with a flimsy and unreliable USB C socket. Not good.

Sorry for the thread drift!

Paul

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Agreed Paul. Proliferation of “standards” renders them pointless.

Mike, I think most of the more modern idle control systems work on the basis that the  throttle is fully closed at idle and the ICV is the only bypass, giving the ECU full control and no need for a fully closing valve. Can you not adopt that approach?

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Hacksaw a slot and use a screwdriver....(assuming it is accessible) Done that many times with odd fixings. Or if big enough a grinder with 1mm disc.

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I had something similar a short while back. I needed to unscrew ONE screw. 

Ended up buying a sealy kit for about £30. It has every bit plus ones that haven't been invented yet.

 

Roger

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Hello All

               All those are anti tamper designed to make you go to the service agent 

Roger

Ps they do not like our sort messing

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2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Agreed Paul. Proliferation of “standards” renders them pointless.

Mike, I think most of the more modern idle control systems work on the basis that the  throttle is fully closed at idle and the ICV is the only bypass, giving the ECU full control and no need for a fully closing valve. Can you not adopt that approach?

Nick

yes that's my plan. the Bosch valve I am using has too much flow when its closed (unpowered) such that the tickover is about 1100 rpm (with the throttle fully closed). I think it was designed for a larger engine that my 1500. So I am looking for one that has a smaller flow rate or is adjustable. This Ford one looks ideal its based around a valve that should give a perfect seal. I will use it to set the tickover if I get the screw out/replaced or find a Penta bit to fit it.

With the cold weather (-4C today)  I have had a chance to play with the Megasquirt cold start settings, not very successful yet! Lots of cranking to get it started usually ends with the battery dropping to 9V when cranking and the megasquirt timing going out (lots of sync errors). If I charge the battery then it starts almost straight away. New starter motor and Bosch 063 battery that's only 11 months old...

cheers

mike

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JohnD non of those!

This is what I want, picture from Ebay but too this one is too big for my screw. Same a 6 sided (HEX) allen key but 5 (Penta) sides...

Mike

penta bit.JPG

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Hello Mike

                  I think I use the same Bosch valve?

It is not unpowered when the engine is running and you can tell it in Microsquirt to close completely but it does leak by design around the sides of the curved valve.

I can get my tick over very low by doing this on ITB's

Roger

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1 hour ago, rogerguzzi said:

Hello Mike

                  I think I use the same Bosch valve?

It is not unpowered when the engine is running and you can tell it in Microsquirt to close completely but it does leak by design around the sides of the curved valve.

I can get my tick over very low by doing this on ITB's

Roger

Roger

yes I think its the same type of valve, I think mine is a cheap copy of a real Bosch one. You can adjust the flow when off (there is a yellow allen , 6 sided!!) screw at the end of the valve, but even with the adjustment I cant get the tickover low enough. If I take the pipes of the valve and block them the engine stalls so I know there are no other leaks. If I unplug the valve then when the car is warm then there is no change in engine speed so the Megasquirt is not driving the valve when the engine is warm.
Could be a 'better'  Bosch valve would help but I am going to play with the Ford one for the moment.

cheers

mike

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4 hours ago, mpbarrett said:

I will use it to set the tickover if I get the screw out/replaced or find a Penta bit to fit it.

When I needed a triangular key in a hurry I just attacked a spare hex-key with the bench grinder to make one. Worked a treat.

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Take an old screwdriver and start grinding away. If you grind off too much, cut it off and start again. After that, you have a permanent tool for the job in your tool drawer!

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18 minutes ago, DeTRacted said:

When I needed a triangular key in a hurry I just attacked a spare hex-key with the bench grinder to make one. Worked a treat.

Ah, much like the .....ishman who was caught forging 10p pieces by filing the corners off 50p pieces!

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Well since hex keys are ten-a-penny and I have a fair few gash rusty ones I shall never use as intended, it wasn't quite like that Paul.  Plus there's two ends on a hex key so you could modify one end without really losing anything....

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Hello Mike

                  I did not know you could adjust them!

I just drive mine with the Microsquirt to the closed position

I suspect they are set a bit open to provide anti run on for carburettor cars?

Roger

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Turned and machined a Penta bit, bashed it into the screw and tried turning it... I think the screw was put in with the Best Loctite, it would not move... so
Plan B, mounted it into the milling machine and carefully drilled out the pesky old screw. Gave up on the remains of the metric thread and drilled and tapped it to 3/8 AF. Job done :).

Now have an adjustable idle valve. Just need to machine a mounting block and give it a try. Will back with updates later :)

Mike

 

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Finally fitted my new idle control valve. Its from a  Fiesta mk4 part number 938F-9F715, basically solenoid operated valve.  By drilling out the original adjuster and fitting a
bolts I can adjust the idle speed when  the valve is off. The block its mounted on has a fresh air  feed from the plenum chamber and then 4 ports (blue silicon pipes) to the Jenvy throttle bodies.
Still need to tidy the wiring up as its bodged into the old connector for the Bosch idle control valve.
All seems to work very well if a bit noisy when its operating so might change the operating frequency, its uses PWM to control the valve position. BTW the solenoid has a built in diode and has the polarity written on the body of the valve.

Mike

small31.jpg

small1.jpg

adjuster1.jpg

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Hello Mike

                   What have you set the valve frequency at?

I bought the same valve to try I am not drilling the super glued in adjuster as I can barely blow through it when un powered

I have tried various settings and at the moment settled for 313hz(above this it buzzes slightly less!)

I have set the range at 25% closed and 95% open either side made no difference

I tested it at 40%(probably normal running?) and left it for about 30 mins and it was barely warm and did the same at 95%(but it will only be at this when engine is cold) it buzzes a bit more at this setting? (but not much warmer((hand test)

I will fit it to the car later and have a play

I think my proper Bosch one was sticking as I tried a Chinese copy and seemed better but could not get the tick over low(850 rpm only 1000 rpm) so I think it leaks more around the valve!

Roger 

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Hi,

 type 063 battery for a Spit/GT6 is a poor choice as its rather small on a car with a lot of electronics. Much better sizes out there.

A have a three wire solenoid that performs TSO. Bosch I think.

Cheers,

Iain.

 

 

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3 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi,

 type 063 battery for a Spit/GT6 is a poor choice as its rather small on a car with a lot of electronics. Much better sizes out there.

A have a three wire solenoid that performs TSO. Bosch I think.

Cheers,

Iain.

 

 

re battery.

my problem was with cold starting, when I looked at the signal from the crank sensor it was all over the place.  if you cant get a good crank sensor signal the MS has no chance of working.... Tried another almost new starter motor from my old GT6 and then didn't help. In the  end brought a modern starter motor from the TSSC shop (cheapest but still not cheap), this solved all the cold start problems, decent starting revs, less load on battery and good signal from crank sensor. Problem solved.
Maybe a new original starter motor would have helped but I did try a couple  of motors and with new brushes.... It didn't help that this is a new engine (less than 1500 miles on it) with I think a fairly high CR..

Interesting that the MS system uses much less current than the original points/coil. After I fitted it I had problems with it running on after the ignition was off, to start with if I pressed the brake pedal the engine would stop (extra load on the feed from the alternator), I then fitted LED brake lights and this didn't work any more as the load was less! The answer was to fit a diode to the line from the ign light. This fixed the problem.
The point is that the SM system (injection and ignition control thru ford wasted spark coil) requires less current than a points/coil system.

Mike

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