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I echo Darren's wishes regarding JM & Brian R efforts to try to change things but I'm of the opinion that nothing will change, the BOD's will press on with their own agenda.

My thoughts are that the main players on the BOD's have a personal agenda of control, power and elitism. They will seek to "out" the non conformists and then treat the Club as "their own Private Club"

Lets hope the members wake up to what is happening before it's too late, I doubt they will because the majority of members only want a badge and a monthly magazine, they are not interested in the politics of the Club and or Group Meetings. I suspect there will be a TR Action spread on the AGM which will probably try to "belittle" the challengers to the BOD's.

Where things went wrong was the "U" turn over the EGM, I never revoked my requested for an EGM, and I believe that to some  Members the BOD's actually came out of the matter with credit for avoiding this, especially with the inept IRP findings, instead of what should have happened, which was the charge of bringing the TRR into disrepute and dismissal of several if not all BOD's and a new start with a  "clean slate".

I too can't bring myself to agree to the T&C's so won't be posting on TRR. In the future if things carry on I can see another TR Club being formed which would be sad as we should all be under the Triumph banner.

Just my thoughts, lets see what happens.

Menno/Peter a "get together" at some point would be good, perhaps we are that new Club waiting in the wings!.

Phil

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Phil,  I have received emails to that end - a breakaway club. Let's see if momentum builds on here. Whcih it will as the BoD tries to polish its image by suppressing criticism Peter

 

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34 minutes ago, PGB BME said:

I can see another TR Club being formed which would be sad as we should all be under the Triumph banner.

I think that would be sad, the Triumph community already seems to be very fragmented . Maybe refugees from the TRR should consider joining an existing club that is closest to their interests and then trying to bring the events/spirit of what they liked about the TRR to that club? Rather than YATC (yet-another-triumph-club)

 

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TR5tar- it is about balance.  No it is not a business in the sense of a company that is out to make profit and grow, it is a club, however as a club it turns over circa £400k per annum, better than many small businesses. Unlike a business the annual income is chiefly derived from members annual dues and as long as there are members it's income by enlarge is safe and guaranteed.  The BoD have responsibilities to manage that turnover like any company on behalf of the shareholders, in this case the members. First they have protect to the membership numbers ( income stream) and secondly the must manage( mitigate ) costs. Outside of this the only option is to find new income streams. Now that is more difficult at the TRR is "limited by guarantee". If it wishes to trade as a business then it must change its status.

It is right and long overdue that the BoD start to act professionally. To do this they need to have due policies and process in place that are transparent and auditable. These the TRR do not have and have resisted having since inception. As far as I am aware the BoD do not have a plan or strategy to do any of these things. Proposals in the past to start to introduce procedures have been shot down and ideas to save costs ridiculed. It is all a simple business equation that has been ignored for years. It needs to be grappled with, but does not mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. As you correctly say TR5tar the ethos of the club and its primary objective needs to be central to any strategy. Talking with Paul Hogan at length, he had a plan and a strategy that would have saved money kept fees fixed for a good number of years and engaged more with the members.  Like all of us Paul has his faults and his distractors, but one thing he is excellent at is ideas and looking forward. 

BrianR - I wish you all the luck you will need. I do not wish to discourage the attempt, but feel I have to say sadly I cannot see you winning the day. A BoD that is willing to operate they way it has this past year is not going to change direction and certain BoD members are not going to resign. I fear they will simply label you major trouble maker. 

Graham  -  I have given some thought to writing to the magazine before I joined sideways. My conclusion was that I would not get printed or I would be so edited as to alter the tenet of my words. I have not completely abandoned the idea and when my renewal comes up like a number on this thread I will write clearly outlining my views and feelings. let my brain percolate the idea more, if I do decide to write to TRA I will let you all know. 

PeterC - The club is its members. The media by which they connect and socialise is the fabric that holds it all together. Many on the BoD are senior managers and directors of large companies, yet they fail in the very basics of understanding management and that is people. I wonder sometimes if today's companies are run by ex salespeople promoted because they made big sales, but with no real business or management skills. In such scenario boards they are on run on the basis of "group think" where the loudest gets the vote and the deep thinking introvert is not given voice. I feel this is what has happened within  the TRR. Nne of the recent actions have been thought through. As owners of TRs do we need the TRR in its present form, do we need Didcot could we exist as a virtual and international community? Judging by the success of several websites and facebook pages, some run by members on this site - yes we could.

Duncan

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I'm very much afraid that Darren is right on the money with his assessment of the BoD thinking and actions. If this trend continues it will be a sad time for the TRR and it may well dwindle in its appeal to many.

Thanks to all for kind wishes re our efforts ,they have probably already got me marked but the worst they can do is kick me out. In the meantime I will make this one last effort to restore some sanity.

 

Cheers

Brian

 

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I would be careful what you wish for with clubs.

This forum works as it is a community as opposed to a club. Yes, there are people who oversee what goes on and act fairly, while still letting discussions be robust.

Turn a community into a club, and things often go awry. You get a group of people running it, who will have their own agenda, whatever that may be. And all too easily the cycle begins again.

Sam is spot on. If anybody whats to re-home, there are already well established clubs. Be it Triumph, sports cars or a "general" club. But I am guessing the (ex?) TRR group will want to stay together. But that has its own issues. A pre-formed group who have strong views on what they want from a club..... 

 

Edited by zetecspit

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ZETECSPIT  Interesting point your raise and very true what you say about agendas, power ego etc. What is the difference between a community and a club when does one become the other? 

It is clear that the TRR is a club, but is the TR Forum a community? 

I believe, while not to the extent the TRR, most car clubs are facing similar issues of falling membership, lack of direction and the old devil ,age. 

Few youngsters are at all interested in our cars and few even own cars these days. Horrible things destroying the planet etc. It stands to reason that we do not need more fractions of clubs but that the clubs need ,nay must, join together to  survive.  I proposed this at TR Committee at least 14 years ago. The then chair played along visited a few clubs but said we had been told to naff off. The difficulty then was differences of personality the chair of the TRR and the heads of other clubs neither liked each other or trusted each other. The fear was that the TRR panned to take them over. It was a sin within the TRR to belong to any other Triumph club - yeh gods why,and what right did TRR have to act that way. There are indeed many Triumph and standard triumph clubs, all with the same aim and all facing the same demographic problems, but no one is coming up with answers as they all protect their patch. Just how short sighted can one get. The only sure way of any of thee clubs surviving is by uniting under one umbrella with each having its own spoke to promote its own marque but all benefitting from reduced costs, shared members interests, and bargaining power with suppliers as well as going truly international. 

Duncan

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I have been a member of TRR for only about six years. I have met some wonderful people in the local group and those I have followed in the forums, most of whom seem to have values similar to my own. I could not have wanted for a better mix of diverse individuals. Obviously we all have different desires to get the best personal experience out of our cars and I have been very delighted for my membership to support differing interests within the club, it is the diverse interests that give any club the depth and colour which makes it worthwhile.

 

As my experience of the club has broadened I have become aware of its darker side where I believe it does not operate for the benefit of the wider membership but in funding the ambitions of an inner circle. I joined expecting to be a member of a club, but now I am confused as to what the TRR offers members at a national level. Now I have an ethical dilemma, do I continue to invest my, admittedly small, membership fee in an organisation when I no longer believe in its core values, or do I walk?

As a Yorkshire man I obviously believe in Utopia, a land where people always do the right thing even at some personal cost; simply because it is the right thing to do.

So I don’t really have a choice, I will really regret loosing contact with many good people, but I will be able to continue to hold my head up high. My membership was due to renew about now and it will lapse, perhaps as Duncan wrote above it is an insignificant contribution to the club, but as of a few days ago I’m ex-TRR and proud of it. 

I would be pleased to seek to join any club that has its members at heart.

Alan

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Duncan,

I'm a member of 3 car clubs, for a variety of reasons.....

  • Club Triumph - I enjoy the events that they organise, I hope to be able to enter more of their trackday/competitive events in coming years, but have enjoyed "Border Raiders", 10CR and RBRR!
  • Triumph Dolomite Club - as a Dolomite owner I very much appreciate the support that the community and the club provide in terms of sourcing parts etc. The 1850 presents a number of problems when it comes to low volumes originally made and a lack of commonality with other models making certain parts hard to source. 
  • APMCC - http://www.apmcc.co.uk/ a great local club with a variety of events and affiliations with other clubs/events.

Of the 3 I'd say the one with the most secure future is APMCC - their PCA series attracts an incredible variety of entries and is very accessible to young people taking part in their "first car" etc.

CT have seriously p'd me off with their "new" forum/website and a few other things in recent times, but I suspect I'll remain a member to give me access to the events.

TDC - For as long as I own a Dolomite they'll get my subs every year, it's worth the membership fee alone to have access to the club parts shop!

Lots to think about! :-)

Sam

Edited by yorkshire_spam
correct that typo!

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Hi Duncan,

I've replied elsewhere to a post I made in comment to a post you made. My post sounded as though I criticised you.

In fact I read the gumph that prompted your post and it was that that I was commenting on. Sorry if it read wrong.

Some members have been taken in hook line and sinker. And then they blabb about it.

 

regarding the acceptance of the 'rules' resolution. There is a line in the preamble  that the TRR can make changes where necessary (thank heavens)

I emailed AllanW with a concern that they did not read the new rules at the vetting stage to see that they were inferior to the existing rules. He agreed.

There was comment prior to the AGM that the author of the resolution (as he never went on the forum) did not know there were any TRR published rules 

Any committee or board have a duty of care. For a company this is covered by the Companies Act 2006. The TRR BoD simply ignored this responsibility.

Roger

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4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

ZETECSPIT  Interesting point your raise and very true what you say about agendas, power ego etc. What is the difference between a community and a club when does one become the other? 

It is clear that the TRR is a club, but is the TR Forum a community? 

 

Ah, above my pay grade.

But I was involved with a local running Club. Not affiliated etc, but it was run by a couple who had asports shop, gave discounts to members etc and was free. They even put money behind the bar at events! However, as it grew more rules crept in. Miss so many weeks, you were out and put on the waiting list. Then they started to get very controlling, people being told off behind closed doors etc. Then the final blow, they chucked out a lady who was loved by everybody. For organising a few people to do an event. At which point it imploded.

Next day a community of the runners emerged, an informal facebook group, kept private so you had to be invited to join. (amazing how many people wanted to join when it went public for a few days. Bearing in mind we are based in Brighton, we had people from all over the world trying to join) Things have settled in well. Initially there was talk of formalising it, but I and others objected. Keep it simple, very few rules other than be nice, no money involved, easy going. Bit like this forum.

But try to organise events, and start having stands at shows? You then have responsibility, and more serious decision making. That can be when the rot sets in.

My Clubs (following Sams post!)
TSSC. First Triumph Club. Stayed for 2 reasons. 1. Agreed value insurance, maybe I am nervous of going elsewhere? I do like the club backed approach should it be needed  2. Social. I have long term friends. Attended Weddings and Funerals, helped others out, been helped out. Known some people nearly 30 years. That is a long time! So leaving is almost impossible. Oh, and access to Le Mans helps. A bit.

CT. Joined 12 years ago, stayed as I liked the forum, again lots of good friends. The events are excellent. New forum less so. 

TDC Joined so I could buy stuff from them! Decent forum, and great spares.

At various points I have been a member of local car clubs to access rallies/autosolos etc. Needs must....

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3 hours ago, yorkshire_spam said:

I think that would be sad, the Triumph community already seems to be very fragmented . Maybe refugees from the TRR should consider joining an existing club that is closest to their interests and then trying to bring the events/spirit of what they liked about the TRR to that club? Rather than YATC (yet-another-triumph-club)

 

I've never been a member of any of the other Triumph clubs, but since my problems with the Reg I've obviously considered joining one or more of them. Until now I've resisted, mainly because I wonder if many of the issues that concern me about the Reg also exist in those other clubs, especially having read some of the posts on SW about those other clubs.

I'd like to see all the clubs working in harmony to serve the Triumph community, but egos tend to get in the way and the bigger an organisation gets the less people will agree and pull in the same direction. Fragmentation seems inevitable to me, especially in cases where the regime will not tolerate criticism. What choice do people have? Continue banging their heads against the brick wall, or do something else?

Traditional clubs, with a hierarchy, are going to struggle to survive unless they change. Getting younger people to join these clubs (assuming we can even get them interested in owing classic cars of the sort we like) is a massive challenge. Twenty years ago owners needed a club to gain knowledge and help them source parts. That's no longer the case. Parts are pretty easy to come by for our cars, and there is plenty of free information to be found online. Take those traditional club benefits out of the equation and what is left?

There's the club magazine, which in the case of the Reg looks nice, but there's only so much I can read about someone else's trip to a local pub and what a wonderful steak and ale pie they had. How often do you find a piece of information in the club magazines that is particularly useful to you at the time of reading it? And if you do, could you have also found it for free, online? Younger people coming into clubs are not going to be particularly wowed by a glossy magazine. They are the on-demand generation; they'll want immediate access to specific information, and they probably won't want to pay for it.  

For me, the draw of the club was the social element, but not everyone is keen on that side of things. Just look at what percentage of Reg members actually attend group meetings (20% - 25%).  Younger people are far more used to and comfortable with meeting people online, so I imagine group attendance will continue to fall, even if overall membership is maintained, which in itself is unlikely. And of course, what many of us here are now finding is that nobody needs to be a club member in order to make and maintain friendships in the classic car community. 

Take a look at these Facebook classic car groups; some have tens of thousands of members. That's the direction things are heading. If those running traditional car clubs continue trying to make them into money-making businesses, they are doomed to fail (at least for the members). A club does not need to be large or wealthy in order to offer members something of value. 

 

Edited by TR5tar

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Thing is, people who currently own classics like shows. But here I think the "breakfast meet" format is the one to watch, simple, no sign-up, no real rules etc. Turn up as you wish, leave as you wish. And home in time for the Sunday Roast. A community rather than club....

The traditionalists want the big international weekend type of thing. Yes, I like them, meet up with people you see a few times a year and so on.

The point here is that even those who ;eave the TRR or whatever organisation, can still attend these events. Yes, you are handing money over, but you are getting a weekend event that largely should appeal. The time is here to pick and choose I reckon.

another 20 years and who knows were we will be . Enjoy the cars and friends and all that stuff while you can. Do the events you want (may require joining a club) and I think don't fret about decisions at the top. Well, that s currently my approach....

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Agreed, Clive & Darren.  But isn't the 'international' weekend sort of fizzling out for lack of fresh ideas and fresh blood?

I don't want to stir, but... what is the point of TRR membership? 

If I lived in the UK, the Register couldn't stop me being in the same pub as a local Group, with my TR parked up outside.  If members cold-shouldered me because I'm not a card carrier, there are plenty of other car groups to share a common interest with.  I wouldn't get the magazine, but hey, despite the constant refrain of how wonderful it is, it's just a magazine.  The technical content is available from other sources and the social content is... well, just that.

I can still access and search the forum, without agreeing to the arcane rules (I can't post, so become a net taker instead of giver - an own goal, surely?) and the only bits that I can't access are the conversations on MC, which wouldn't provide the sort of assistance that I'm looking for in the technical fora.

There's no shop, precious little trader discount (am I mistaken on that?) and no welcome to speak of.  I once posted (whilst still a member) and suggested changing the nature of the 'overseas' membership to make it more inclusive and somebody replied to the effect that, as a TR owner, I had a duty to pay my subs to repay those pioneers who safeguarded the marque back in the 70s.  Please.

Sound selfish?  Yes, but that's pretty much the impression I had of the Register itself.

Paul

 

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Totally agree. Being a member of a/any club is often an insurance requirement (not too convinced!) but also with the next TRR international being a joint bash with teh TSSC as partners, and certainly CT and other smaller clubs being invited in previous years, there are no real boundaries to doing most stuff that is on offer.

Must say, I have found the TRR peeps at their trackdays thoroughly decent. Shared a breakfast table with one chap who I think was one of the BoD. I remember he showed us some video footage of him doing one of the 24 hour test thingies (Devon?) in his TR3. And also being brilliant talking to Molly, my youngest...  But he seemed to have a very sisible approach to classic ownership, and didn't appreciate people who tell him he shouldn't use the car for events etc...(I am to polite to use his exact words, and he did apologise to Molly)

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Guy's

Just to be clear I wasn't pushing for a new Triumph Club to be formed, I was only commenting that in the current climate I can see it happening, my opinion only.

Yes Triumph clubs should be closer but the reason they are not is because of the fear  by Members that one Club will be swallowed up by another and their identify lost. Also I've heard that personality clashes in the past have also restricted the chance of this getting off the ground, maybe this element is changing with IWE 2019.

An example of what perhaps could work is that my cousin is a RS Focus owner and is a member of the RS Owners Club, but he is also a member of the Ford Owners Club, and I may say he pays significantly less on subs to the current TRR subscription, yes there are more Ford Owners but not that many RS Focus Owners. The Ford Fair meeting actually takes over Silverstone Race Circuit for a day, cost per person I think I'm correct is about £25 mark,  for an adult, 2 children under 14 with a paying adult get in free) at the event are all the Ford Marques, is that something that could be achieved by Triumph?. I think they get approx 18,000 attending, and probably get some cash from Ford so a Triumph event would probably have to be scaled accordingly.

I think all clubs will need to change in the future, it's having the mindset and willingness to do so, (ego's and agenda aside).

I hope 2019 IWE is a success, perhaps it is the start of a new format that can be developed and grown.

Phil

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Zetecspit: "Thing is, people who currently own classics like shows. But here I think the "breakfast meet" format is the one to watch, simple, no sign-up, no real rules etc. Turn up as you wish, leave as you wish. And home in time for the Sunday Roast. A community rather than club...."

Yes, I like the informal breakfast meet type events, too. And we still find a lot of local, smaller shows, where people can just turn up. A lot of members that I talk with do not want to book an event weeks in advance, which for whatever reason they then might not be able to attend. 

In my local group, I always tried to organise what the majority of members who made their wishes clear wanted. Drive it day earlier this year is a good example. A Reg director organised an event at a car museum down near Yeovil. I'm sure it would have been a good day out, but most of my members said that they didn't want to book for an event that they'd have to drive almost two hours to reach, and pay quite a lot of money for. Those members asked if I'd organise a local run and a meal. There was nothing to stop any of my members going to the club organised event, but none did. Instead, I had 21 cars on the run I organised. Now, I know that the director who organised the club event was unhappy that I did not push it more firmly on my group, but as I've always said, I'm there to do what members tell me they want. 

Keeping things informal, not under a club banner, does have advantages, as you say. A community of friends and fellow enthusiasts getting together to enjoy the cars is perhaps the way to go, rather than a formal club.

What did slightly annoy me was being told by a former director, while wagging his finger in my face, that I'd need to have an MSA licence just to go out on a Sunday social run with a few friends. He used it as a reason as to why people had to be club members. Well, I phoned the MSA the next day and asked. A very helpful chap told me that what I'd been told was completely false. Social runs do not need a MSA licence, although there are of course certain other considerations to take into account when organising a convoy of cars.         

"Another 20 years and who knows were we will be . Enjoy the cars and friends and all that stuff while you can. Do the events you want (may require joining a club) and I think don't fret about decisions at the top. Well, that s currently my approach...."

On the whole I agree with your philosophy Clive, but not fretting about decisions at the top just allows people to get away with bad behaviour. You and I might be able to say "Let them get on with it", but it's much more difficult for those that have invested decades to see the club being ruined. Several long standing members have said to me, "What's happened to my club?" I feel desperately sorry for those members.      

Edited by TR5tar

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I think we are on the same page...

I know people who are/were in the TRR. It is certainly not the only club with issues, they seem to be determined to cause themselves problems. And certainly not unique to Triumphs.Fords went mad years ago, likewise now look at the Mini clubs, hundreds of the blighters.

But now it seems there is a glimmer of hope for the Triumph movement that the clubs seem to be friends again, after many years.

And I also appreciate that some people do invest heavily into clubs. It can be so frustrating.... (personal experience here). However, Club hierarchy can be impenetrable. And then as noted elsewhere, the vast majority of members are not interested, especially those who are members by paying and receiving a magazine, not involved with anything else. But those caight up in the turmoil and notice, yes, it can be difficult to explain. Had a long chat with a TSSC member the other day explaining why the club was cold-shouldered by the TRR and others. He had no idea. I guess TRR members are beginning to notice changes.

But the reality is, we are lucky to have a choice of Fori, and still keep in contact with the people we share our enthusiasm with. Long may that continue, and difficult as it may be, look to the future, decent roads and the odd pint. As to the people who cause the grief, best to leave them behind and not waste energy. Goodness knows I have little of that these days. (just spent the morning grinding back and re-welding chassis repairs. Ears ringing, hands tingling. And less that halfway through....it used to be so much easier)

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My reading of the new TRR + TSSC joint weekend is that it is being forced upon the TRR to help defray the cost of running the International Weekend. TRers are attending in ever-declining numbers and venue costs have risen. Its not the two Boards kissing and making up, just cash worries.

Peter

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I know the TRR and SOC ran a few joint events. I think there was a number of people who STRONGLY objected to that. Not sure how they will cope with small chassis cars! 

I think what you say about money is true, but until recently the TRR wouldn't go near the TSSC. Somebody has left.... and now they are working together. Not sure if the SOC has any involvement, I am guessing not a big player this year.

And I know the international events are big loss-makers. Which is why the TSSC went to cheap venues for the last few years. Not sure what numbers will be like. But the 2016 Lincoln event had a lot of cars there (only one I have attended, then only on the Sunday for 1/2 day)

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On 12/6/2018 at 10:21 AM, RogerH said:

Hi Duncan,

I've replied elsewhere to a post I made in comment to a post you made. My post sounded as though I criticised you.

In fact I read the gumph that prompted your post and it was that that I was commenting on. Sorry if it read wrong.

Some members have been taken in hook line and sinker. And then they blabb about it.

 

 

Hi Roger, thanks for this.

I did not see your post so was not upset, not that I would have been. 

I was told that you had said something against me,but as I said I never saw it anyway. I was concerned as I can think of no reason to have fallen out with you or you with me? I feel that almost everyone posting under this topic is on the same page or close to it. We are all often misunderstood in emails as they lack the facial expressions and intonation in voice we need when communicating . The perils of modern living.

I was in fact hoping that your were elected as I was looking for some transparency,honesty and integrity  - all sadly lacking on TRR BoD.

Go easy

Cheers

Duncan

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Re breakfast meets etc and joint club events;

I belong to a local car club that has been going almost as long as the TRR. It is regional and does not exist outside of this neck of the woods.

It is open to anyone with a classic and an interest in classics and has an eclectic mix from pre WW1 Steam cars to racing Bentley and Ferrari's, buses and fire engines, in fact anything mechanical. It meets once a month at various locations. There is a monthly newsletter that is but two pages but packed with far more interesting "copy"  than I have seen in a TRA for many a year. There are regular run outs parties,BBQs and other social events all for £12 p.a. It has one rule " we do not do concours" hence it is not a shiny car club, the members enjoy the variety, originality and shear mechanical beauty on display.

Similarly there are two separate local organisations that are internet driven, and organise classic events once a month, no membership no fee. Word is spread by social media. These events have grown and grown in popularity. 

This tells me that the pull of a one make car club is numbered, and that those who complain when their car club does a joint event with another and basically being small minded and ensuring the demise of their particular club. 

One of my favourite management phrases founded on an Einstein quote is " If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got" To continue doing the same thing is the path to madness. 

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