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May's Brexit Plan

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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

That's because they have sold 300 A320 to China, in the backwash of the Boeing 737 disasters.

 

3 hours ago Scooter also said:

British Steel’ is one of the leading rail makers in Europe, but the finished rail is not rolled in Britain, production was moved to France were it attracts very advantageous subsidies from the French government via the EU, and allows it to sell rail to French railways that despite the allegedly ‘free’ EU market, does not buy steel from non French suppliers.

But after Brexit that falls on its face.  No subsidies, and a 25% import duty.

 

2 hours ago Scooter said, quoting someone, "His remarks suggest Spain is increasingly willing to accept a no-deal Brexit to achieve greater integration."     Who? Farage?   Anywya, Spain doesn't have a vote in the UK.  Not that we do either.

And 2 hours ago, Scooter said: Anyway, enough of May, it’s Farages game now.   And posted a table from the Guido Fawkes site that just inserted European Parliament electin results as projected Westminster General Election results for 2022.    Wholly speculative, and based on ... laziness.

 

Finally Scooter, if you say that remainers base their opinions on, "nothing but racism, xenophobia and the uneducated"  I refer you to Mr Alexander  de Peffel "Boris" "Piccaninny" "Letterbox" "Watermelon" Johnson,  that wellknown and allegedly well-educated racist and xenophobic.

I'm glad to debate with you, but not to swap insults.

John

I’m sure you had a point to make, but it’s been lost in your blind rage.

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22 minutes ago, Scooter said:

Airbus isn’t doing very well currently

Depends on your definition of "currently". Before or after Boeing shot at least one of their feet off with their "pilot aid" substitute for proper air-frame design that kills people by the plane-load?

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It's a pity that Lord Stokes is still not around. After the job he did on British Leyland I'm sure he could have sorted out your problems. :wacko:

Tony.

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3 hours ago, Janner said:

Because they have sold more aircraft, their business decision to leave the UK has changed?

 

Can you clarify the thinking for me John?

 

Ta

John

You have a short memory, Janner, as well as an attitude that doesn't help civilised debate.   In February this year, just three months ago, work.on the Airbus A320 was stopped, with no plans for any more.  No customers.  The wings, of course, are made in Bristol.      What else would you like to know?

John

Edited by JohnD

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2 hours ago, Scooter said:

... a fuselage is a big tube and you can train former Farm workers with the help of lavish EU subsidies to make them...

I'm sure you had a point to make, but it was lost in the ill-disguised vitriol directed at other parts of the EU.

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2 hours ago, Scooter said:

I’m sure you had a point to make, but it’s been lost in your blind rage.

Oh, for goodness sake, are you more interested in being rude, or having a civilised debate?    You made a number of points, which I countered.    Making unpleasant assertions about your opponent, attacking them not their argument, is the "ad hominen" tactic.

Please answer my points?

Edited by JohnD

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10 minutes ago, JohnD said:

You have a short memory, Janner, as well as an attitude that doesn't help civilised debate.   In February this year, just three months ago, work.on the Airbus A320 was stopped, with no plans for any more.  No customers.  The wings, of course, are made in Bristol.      What else would you like to know?

John

Bristol.....has it moved to Wales?   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broughton,_Flintshire

Peter

 

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On 5/27/2019 at 9:13 PM, JohnD said:

You have a short memory, Janner, as well as an attitude that doesn't help civilised debate.   In February this year, just three months ago, work.on the Airbus A320 was stopped, with no plans for any more.  No customers.  The wings, of course, are made in Bristol.      What else would you like to know?

John

John

Yes you are right, I do gave memory issues, at least, according to SWMBO.

Attitude; well, I'm  not sure how asking a civilised question, on a discussion  forum rates, as being a marker for being unhelpful.

I don't  rant about Tories or Mr Farage or Brexit leavers, so, I would suggest that, for discussion, my attitude is one of care and reasonable calm.  Something that others are less able to claim.

 

I was aware of the reduced orders situation at Airbus, but, not aware of the potential plans for Boeing to buy up redundant Airbus facilities here.

 

Without questions and civilised debate, we cannot learn.  As I get older, I continue to learn

 

John

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I'll be glad to keep the debate as polite as you have been, Janner!

But reserve my right to be as rude as possible (within the proprieties, of course!) to the politicians.

JOhn

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Nick posted  a quote on the ChatBox, and as that is as ephemeral as Facebook, I must record it here:

"greatest charlatan in the history of the Conservative party: that incompetent, manipulative, lazy, overentitled, media-constructed and media-protected fatberg of dishonesty, Boris Johnson." Quote from Nick Cohen in the Guardian. Colourful turn of phrase - can't help but agree. The rest of them aren't much better sideways_ermm.gif"

But have you heard his latest effusion (posh, medical term for pus)?   He will refuse to pay the EU our "Exit Fee" of £39Billion, making the UK a Rogue State, as unacceptable to the financial world as, say, Venezuala. Goodbye investment in UK industry!

  And then he's going to raise the tax threshold for 40% income tax, costing £10 Billion that will mostly go to rich pensioners.      As, thanks to forty years working for the NHS, I am in that lucky position, I bitterly resent being chosen to benefit in a way that must perpetuate the effects of the Austerity regime inflicted on that NHS, on education, social care, the probation service, and deprived children.      That austerity means that 40% of UK children today live in poverty.  FOUR IN TEN!   While at the same time, there are twice as many billionaires in the UK as there were in 2010.    Tax the Rich!  Says one of them!

John

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Yes,  but I know a midwife who refuses to do overtime because she doesnt want to pay 40% tax.  Its called fiscal drag and its evident in so many areas of the tax system.  The higher rate of tax does start too early - perhaps you could argue the highest earners should pay more - but an earlier thread came to an abrupt end when I set out just how much someone on £150k per annum takes home.  So how much do you earn before you tax people more?. Personally I would amalgamate Nic and tax rates and apply them to everyone including pensioners.  That is politically impossible though because pensioners vote and young people don't.  It always strikes me as odd that my final salary pensioner of a father- in - law can sit on the bus for free watching a young mother struggling to get her and the kids on a bus when she pays for transport and, even though earning a fraction of his pension, she pays 12% more in tax than him!!  To be fair he finds it odd too but wouldnt thank you for making pay another £4000 a year in tax!!

Bob

 

 

 

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Bob

In my (admittedly uniformed) opinion, it should, surely, be a case of ensuring that everybody pays their fair share.  Gleaning from your other posts, it does appear that there is excessive scope for creativity in how tax liability is defined and calculated.

Believe me that I would be the last in the queue to cite an example from Russia, but their approach to massive, industrial-scale tax evasion was to introduce a flat rate (13% VAT, PIT and CIT) and eliminate deductibles.  Overnight, the top rate dropped from 50% to 13% and their recovery rate soared.  I can't remember what the figure was, but the increase in tax receipts was significant.

Paul

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6 hours ago, JohnD said:

But have you heard his latest effusion (posh, medical term for pus)?   He will refuse to pay the EU our "Exit Fee" of £39Billion, making the UK a Rogue State, as unacceptable to the financial world as, say, Venezuala. Goodbye investment in UK industry!

I'm sorry John but this is tosh. A 'rogue state' is somewhere like North Korea.  This, in theory, is about Sovereign Debt Default not terrorism.

However, the £39B is conditional on ratifying the Withdrawal Agreement, it isn't an 'exit fee'.  It is public domain information (House of Lords Report) that the breakdown of the £39billion is about 50% fee for the two year transition period, as a non-voting member, £14billion, an unspecified 'goodwill' payment and about £5billion in real past liabilities.

If there is no deal, we don't owe £39billion, we owe £5 billion + a pro rata of continued membership since 29th March. 

Do you honestly believe that the UK would default on a real debt?

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6 hours ago, JohnD said:

 

 And then he's going to raise the tax threshold for 40% income tax, costing £10 Billion that will mostly go to rich pensioners.      As, thanks to forty years working for the NHS, I am in that lucky position, I bitterly resent being chosen to benefit in a way that must perpetuate the effects of the Austerity regime inflicted on that NHS, on education, social care, the probation service, and deprived children.      That austerity means that 40% of UK children today live in poverty.  FOUR IN TEN!   While at the same time, there are twice as many billionaires in the UK as there were in 2010.    Tax the Rich!  Says one of them!

Well you don't need to worry about Boris' tax 'pledge' because the Tories don't have the numbers to get it through Parliament and it would trigger a no-confidence vote.  It is a non-story designed to appeal to the Right and 'trigger' the Left. 

Regarding the poor, any figure should be regarded as too high but the Joseph Rountree  Foundation (hardly a Right Wing pressure group) put the number of children in relative poverty at 1 in 4 (25%).  Where did you get the 40% figure from?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Chris W said:

Well you don't need to worry about Boris' tax 'pledge' because the Tories don't have the numbers to get it through Parliament and it would trigger a no-confidence vote.  It is a non-story designed to appeal to the Right and 'trigger' the Left. 

Regarding the poor, any figure should be regarded as too high but the Joseph Rountree  Foundation (hardly a Right Wing pressure group) put the number of children in relative poverty at 1 in 4 (25%).  Where did you get the 40% figure from?

 

 

 

25% is still a shameful figure for an ostensibly 'developed' country.

However, the Social Metrics Commission, supported by the Joseph Rountree Foundation, calculates UK child poverty at 33%.

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4 hours ago, Chris W said:

I'm sorry John but this is tosh. A 'rogue state' is somewhere like North Korea.  This, in theory, is about Sovereign Debt Default not terrorism.

However, the £39B is conditional on ratifying the Withdrawal Agreement, it isn't an 'exit fee'.  It is public domain information (House of Lords Report) that the breakdown of the £39billion is about 50% fee for the two year transition period, as a non-voting member, £14billion, an unspecified 'goodwill' payment and about £5billion in real past liabilities.

If there is no deal, we don't owe £39billion, we owe £5 billion + a pro rata of continued membership since 29th March. 

Do you honestly believe that the UK would default on a real debt?

Thank you Chris!   So the £39 billion is made up of:

Half price EU membership fee for two years - £20 Billion

Past liabililities -----------------------------------------------£5 billion

"Unspecified 'goodwill' payment ---------------------£14 billion

Total ----------------------------------------------------------------£39 billion.

So which part of that would de Pfeffel Johnson renage on?    I have no fear that he would carry out this "promise", any more than he fulfilled his promise of faithfulness to his wife, of truth to his readers in the Daily Telegraph, and to the people of London who wanted a 24-hour tube service, just to list three of many other lies.

JOhn 

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24 minutes ago, JohnD said:

So which part of that would de Pfeffel Johnson renage on?    I have no fear that he would carry out this "promise", any more than he fulfilled his promise of faithfulness to his wife, of truth to his readers in the Daily Telegraph, and to the people of London who wanted a 24-hour tube service, just to list three of many other lies.

In one respect, it doesn't really matter what he says, he is just playing to a very narrow gallery, in order to be elected leader of the Tories but that, of course, means he ends up being our PM which is cause for concern.

However, if he is successful he will find that nothing has changed.  He won't be able to negotiate a new deal (EU in recess and changing personnel and they know UK Parliament won't allow No Deal).  EU may not grant a further extension because they won't want Farage and crew taking their seats in the new EU Parliament.  This means that the only options left would be to: pass the original WA, a second referendum or Revoke Article50.

In that scenario, a General Election might seem like the least worse option, particularly as Boris, being Boris, will think he can win. I suspect the Electorate would think otherwise and that would be the end of Boris as PM!

Don't miss next week's exciting episode speculation:biggrin:   ..................... 

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Trouble with talking about poverty is that it is usually (as in this case) linked to average or median incomes. So no matter what there will always be a % who are deemed to be in poverty.

And that is not to lessen the impact of how low incomes can affect people. 

As to Boris. He may well get to be PM, especially if he can keep himself out of the headlines for any other reasons. How that pans out is anybody's guess. But with Labour quietly suffering from their own problems (not noticed so much as everybody is looking the other way at the moment) and Farages populist message hitting home with many people as it is, err, populist, it could be an "interesting" year or 2. I am certain politics has been reset in this country, certainly for a while. 

 

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3 hours ago, zetecspit said:

Trouble with talking about poverty is that it is usually (as in this case) linked to average or median incomes.

Yes Clive that is indeed so.

Perhaps a more informative measure is "fuel poverty",
this being considered to be so if over a certain proportion of your income is spent on heating.

 

Ian.

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Well with its new zero-net-co2 legislation the UK parliament is certain to push many more people into fuel poverty in the name of gesture politics. What a bunch of complete prats.

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1 hour ago, Sprint95m said:

Yes Clive that is indeed so.

Perhaps a more informative measure is "fuel poverty",
this being considered to be so if over a certain proportion of your income is spent on heating.

 

Ian.

I disagree.  It is a measure defining the ability to live within the means available, taking into account all unavoidable costs such as housing and fuel.  A bigger - and less manageable - problem than the cost of fuel is the cost of unserviceable debt.

As for Boris.... he needs to account for quite a few irregularities that occurred on his watch whilst faffing around as Mayor of London, including the £47m that the public purse had to cough up for his chums' Garden Bridge plaything.

Paul

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Poverty is defined as not having enough money to meet your basic needs such as food, shelter and medicine.    As the price of those changes (in general) with incomes, the median wage is very good measure of poverty.    The Social Mterics Commission, an independant body, found in 2018 that  4.5 million children live in poverty, which they defined as 55% of the three-year median income.     4.5M is 33% of children in the UK.   OK, not 40%, but the difference is quibbling.  4.5 Million children is far, far too many.

John

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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

Poverty is defined as not having enough money to meet your basic needs such as food, shelter and medicine.    As the price of those changes (in general) with incomes, the median wage is very good measure of poverty.    The Social Mterics Commission, an independant body, found in 2018 that  4.5 million children live in poverty, which they defined as 55% of the three-year median income.     4.5M is 33% of children in the UK.   OK, not 40%, but the difference is quibbling.  4.5 Million children is far, far too many.

John

 

John

Agreed . . . . .1 child in poverty is 1 too many.

But, the median wage will constantly rise, as wages do what they do, rise.

OK, there is fluctuation and there are aberrations like the 2009 collapse, but, measured over repeated periods, wages rise so, the median wage rises as well.

With a moving constant? (can I have a moving constant?), anyway, you catch my drift, the numbers in poverty won't change.

Wages rise - prices rise, wages rise - prices rise, wages rise - prices rise, it's  a never ending carousel.

If we are to make any kind of meaningful, permenant change, we have to find a way of ensuring a major and permenant redistribution of the worlds wealth, a project which is beyond my limited capabilities.

John

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