May's Brexit Plan

[Dave M]

29 minutes ago, PaulAA said:

Dave

Okay, I'll rise to the bait - your response suggests that the referendum question was too complicated for a fair proportion of the electorate, unable to distinguish between uncontrolled immigration (very much a home-grown political problem) and free movement (from which the UK has - and continues to - benefit)

Paul

Paul

I wasn't intending to put a bait in the water. Perhaps just expressing myself badly.

There are many reasons that people voted to leave & migration although often given as the main reason by the press is just one of many.

Dave

 

 

[Nick Jones]

Press a big part of the problem.  Spreading mis-information.  Whether due to towering ignorance and too lazy to check or following own/masters agenda - you judge.

[PaulAA]

3 hours ago, Dave M said:

Paul

I wasn't intending to put a bait in the water. Perhaps just expressing myself badly.

There are many reasons that people voted to leave & migration although often given as the main reason by the press is just one of many.

Dave

 

 

Dave

I'm sorry - I had my tongue in my cheek.

But it crossed my mind that there may be a way forward with the unity that the hard Brexit leaders are (were?) calling for.  Bearing in mind that a lot of them have a vested financial interest in the process - Rees-Mogg, Farage, Dyson, Johnson, Gove and Banks (and his Russian handlers) - why not follow good business practice and have them offer a personal guarantee of the outcome?  After all, toe rag politicians everywhere precipitate enormous change on a near-daily basis and the worst that can happen to them is that they are asked to resign.  No comeback, no liability.

So, a guarantee.  Nothing too onerous, of course.  Much as I'd like to propose testicles or entire wedding tackles on the block, I think that's too emotional and perhaps the personal guarantee from, say, the twelve (since dozen is a good British numeral) leading figures could be that they will stake their entire family fortunes on the success of the outcome.

If, five years after B-Day, the UK's GDP growth is more than 5% behind the EU average, they lose everything.  Every penny, possession, thread they own.  The lot.

I don't think that's unreasonable.  After all, the rest of the country is taking a huge leap into the dark and somebody needs to be underwriting it.

Paul

Edit:  Nick's post reminded me of two very important contributors to the guarantee fund: Paul Dacre and the Dirty Digger, Rupert Murdoch.  Every penny.

Edited December 15, 2018 by PaulAA

[Hamish]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Press a big part of the problem.  Spreading mis-information.  Whether due to towering ignorance and too lazy to check or following own/masters agenda - you judge.

Is this the same as Trumps fake news Nick ?

[DeTRacted]

Strange that the main mis-information was 'project fear' spread by the establishment and in part using taxpayers' money to do so.

[PaulAA]

14 minutes ago, DeTRacted said:

Strange that the main mis-information was 'project fear' spread by the establishment and in part using taxpayers' money to do so.

Absolutely, Rob.

£350m a week more for the NHS.

We'll trade with the world.

The easiest deal in the world to agree.

We'll take back control.

Business will boom.

All true, of course.

And Russia financed it, without it costing British taxpayers a bean!  Result!

[DeTRacted]

Oh yes - of course one forgets that Russia is behind everything. (/sark)   What utter nonsense.

[Janner]

I think this page (8) confirms what most of the UK popluation have known for ages.

Leave politicians, business leaders, unionists, church leaders et al / Remain politicians, business leaders, unionists, church leaders et al.

At worst bunch of liars, the lot of them, at best devious and manipulative.

Take your pick

 

The sad thing is that there are those on the extremes that actually appear to believe the hype.

 

John

[oldtuckunder]

11 hours ago, DeTRacted said:

Oh yes - of course one forgets that Russia is behind everything. (/sark)   What utter nonsense.

Not a great believer in conspiracy theories, but Aron Banks, £8M and Ural Properties does make one think a bit.

Alan

[PaulAA]

11 hours ago, DeTRacted said:

Oh yes - of course one forgets that Russia is behind everything. (/sark)   What utter nonsense.

Rob

Of course it's nonsense, but so is the claim that the ridiculous and self-defeating Project Fear was the main source of misinformation.  Neither 'official' side has anything to be proud about - surely you can't deny that Leave paraded some pretty unsupportable claims and predictions.

Which is why there ought to be some accountability amongst the political class.  I wonder how much public expenditure has been directed away from essential services in the UK to finance the preparations for B=Day, in all its various scenarios.  We can only speculate, because that will surely be concealed and the truth obfuscated.

Paul

[yorkshire_spam]

This is amazing, congratulations to the Sideways forum for having an 8 page discussion on such a divisive and controversial topic without it descending into a slagging match. If only both sides of the referendum campaign had conducted themselves thus!

 

[PeterC]

Best be nice to Russia. What is now uninhabitable wilderness is expceted to warm up conisderably under cc. Likewise northern Cananda. In a century or two they may well be humans' last refuges. 

[Toronto Tim]

6 minutes ago, PeterC said:

Best be nice to Russia. What is now uninhabitable wilderness is expceted to warm up conisderably under cc. Likewise northern Cananda. In a century or two they may well be humans' last refuges. 

We certainly have the space, Peter.  Which always makes me wonder about the squawking over asylum seekers here...

[PeterC]

26 minutes ago, Toronto Tim said:

We certainly have the space, Peter.  Which always makes me wonder about the squawking over asylum seekers here...

Tim,  But can you prevent every american from CA to FA from invading ?  Prognosis for cc on southern USA is not good, so a northward migration is likely. Same for Russia, they wont be able to prevent asia from migrating to the steppes.  Build the walls !!!

Peter

[oldtuckunder]

3 hours ago, PeterC said:

Tim,  But can you prevent every american from CA to FA from invading ? 

Easy, unlike the southern border with Mexico that would require very high fences etc, its reputed that a 3ft wall on Canada's border with the USA would defeat most obese Americans   

[Janner]

Regarding Brexit and Mrs Mays plans . . . . .

The big positive;

Have you noticed, since the Brexit vote, all politicians, of all persuasion, have bugged out of every other part of our lives.

Everything political in our lives is the same as it was 2 years ago.

They've left us in peace, whilst bickering amongst themselves

 

John

[Nick Jones]

Well, this is true, though the constant noise made by brexit has more than offset that in my book.  What it has also done is seriously interfered with the primary purpose of government, which I always thought was to run the country to the best advantage of it's citizens, though maybe that's an old fashioned and now contentious view?

I know for a fact that my little bro, who has been climbing the greasy civil service pole for years, has done nothing but brexit related chasing around Europe for the last two and a bit years.  His travel and hotel bills are significant, and he's just one of an army of them.  Meanwhile, he's not doing what he was originally hired to do....... in fact he complains that he's trying find the least damaging way of undoing what has effectively been his life's work....

Whatever the outcome, the cost of this little tory project to the taxpayer is immense, in monetary terms, but also in time lost.

[mpbarrett]

Interesting article in the Sunday times today by Andrew Marr (its behind the firewall) but here is a section of it.

Yet the Thatcher era is important for another reason. Many of those most intellectually committed to Brexit want it to happen not simply for itself but because they see it as the second phase of the Thatcher revolution — Thatcher 2.0.

The EU is undeniably a social democratic construct. If you want to slash taxes; cut welfare further; open more areas of public life to privatisation; and radically reduce regulation, from employment law to food and the environment, then EU membership has long been an infuriating barrier.

If you think Britain needs a further bout of Thatcherite radicalism, then Brexit is the necessary — but, of course, not sufficient — first step. People don’t talk much about this in case it frightens the horses, but their real aim is a different kind of Britain.

As the Tory party digests the outcome of an attempted political assassination that has wounded without killing, off-stage the EU is narrowing the country’s options. This may be simply honest. Most really big and difficult negotiations, such as peace accords, are finally resolved only when the ideologues on both sides settle down with one another — when the hardmen are in the room together. Negotiators and envoys can get only so far.

In this case, the ideological core of the EU, with its unflinchingly centralist message, is now openly confronting the sovereignty-first Thatcherite backbenchers. For a while it seemed May’s was the plausible middle way. It doesn’t seem so now.

Just as leaving the EU is entirely plausible and economically logical if you want to go for a lower-tax, further deregulated society, so, for convinced social democrats, by far the most logical outcome is to stay in it.

 Basically the EGR and the hard Brexiters want to change the UK fundamentally into a different type of country, with less public services, less support for working people and probably and diminution of the NHS.  A continuation of the Thatcher revolution of the 19080's. This probably NOT what most people voted for....

I have to say I find the political debate and discussion deeply depressing it so much about the Tory party and the fight for power. But the Labour party is not much better they have wasted such an opportunity to get the support of people but they are also deeply divided as a party (from the leader down) about what there policy should be...

Mike

 

[richy_rich]

7 hours ago, mpbarrett said:

Basically the EGR and the hard Brexiters want to change the UK fundamentally into a different type of country, with less public services, less support for working people and probably and diminution of the NHS. 

And they found a way to use populist politics to get people to vote for it.. I think your article is probably quite close to the truth actually,  the issues people voted for (immigration, sovereignty, zombie attacks etc.) are mostly incidental to what the Farage and the Mogg types truly care about. 

I don't think it's a co-incidence that many hardline pro-brexit politicans have worked in banking and/or have significant personal fortunes.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the grumbling about leaving the EU became more and more hysterical and culminated in a referendum on leaving as the EU began introducing new tax legislation any more than I think it's a coincidence that if you add up all the offshore territories (blue lines) here the UK easily comes out champions of the world https://www.financialsecrecyindex.com/introduction/fsi-2018-results 

 

[PaulAA]

1 hour ago, richy_rich said:

And they found a way to use populist politics to get people to vote for it.. I think your article is probably quite close to the truth actually,  the issues people voted for (immigration, sovereignty, zombie attacks etc.) are mostly incidental to what the Farage and the Mogg types truly care about. 

I don't think it's a co-incidence that many hardline pro-brexit politicans have worked in banking and/or have significant personal fortunes.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that the grumbling about leaving the EU became more and more hysterical and culminated in a referendum on leaving as the EU began introducing new tax legislation any more than I think it's a coincidence that if you add up all the offshore territories (blue lines) here the UK easily comes out champions of the world https://www.financialsecrecyindex.com/introduction/fsi-2018-results 

 

The point I've been trying to make.  People - rightly - complain about the appalling quality, behaviour and intentions of politicians, yet accept the most opaic and disingenuous of them as their moral compass.

Rees-Mogg, for one, has a fund structure and strategy that is netting him a fortune by betting against Britain's future prosperity. Where's the public service and altruism in that?

[zetecspit]

Re Rees-Mogg, that is an interesting one with his investment co. I wouldn't say he is trying to cause a drop in UK PLC's fortune to make money, but he recognises Brexit will cause that and so his company is going to take full advantage.After all, that is what their job is.

About Thatcher 2.0, yes I can see this. And again it is largely  the older generation who will be thinking what a great idea it will be to go back in time. Sadly they have forgotten how much harder life really was back then and how much better quality of life is today. (rationing anybody?)

[Sprint95m]

16 hours ago, mpbarrett said:

Yet the Thatcher era is important for another reason. Many of those most intellectually committed to Brexit want it to happen not simply for itself but because they see it as the second phase of the Thatcher revolution — Thatcher 2.0.

Mike

 

That is surely illogical Mike?

Was it not Mrs Thatcher who lead us away from being a manufacturing based economy
in to being a provider of services,
said services having their main market in (what is now called) the EU?

If she was still around, surely Mrs Thatcher would have voted to stay in the EU?

 

Ian.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Sprint95m

[PeterC]

Even i would prefer Thatcher to the many dubious politicos crowding into the EU27.  There are seriously nasty poltical figures in Visigrad group, prepared to offe the finger to Brussels. As for Turkey joing the EU......Brussels' megalomania knows no bounds. And nationalist sentiments with mass suppoert are bringing both left and right wingers into power: AfD, Le Pen.  To me the EU looks to be torn apart by nationalist forces, It is not a land of mlk and honey. By comparison with EU, UK is lucky to have essentially honest politicians. And no President, despite May trying her damnedest to be one.

Peter

[Sprint95m]

1 hour ago, PeterC said:

As for Turkey joing the EU......Brussels' megalomania knows no bounds.

Peter

Okay, seeing as it is seasonal, I'll bite.

What is wrong with Turkey, Peter?

 

Ian.

[DeTRacted]

9 hours ago, zetecspit said:

 

About Thatcher 2.0, yes I can see this. And again it is largely  the older generation who will be thinking what a great idea it will be to go back in time. Sadly they have forgotten how much harder life really was back then and how much better quality of life is today. (rationing anybody?)

Many may hate the lady but it is an inconvenient truth that the great majority of the population has benefited in recent times from the legacy of the Thatcher reforms which dragged this country back from the brink.

Yes I know a lot of people in the old manufacturing and mining sectors got hurt but it had to be done.  Had that not happened those industries would have gone to the wall anyway but only after having wasted further huge amounts of public money in the process. We would probably now be in an economic state worse than Greece in which case even the present levels of welfare spending would be completely unaffordable. 
The plain fact is that until our people are willing and able to work for the pittances paid in the far east (and probably next in Africa),  manpower intensive heavy industry will not be economic here and will not be coming back. 

Apart from the brief petrol shortages after the Yom Kippur war in '73 I can barely remember rationing, as that stopped in the mid '50s. I certainly can remember the incessant strikes in the '70s and early '80s though, including the winter of discontent, and really do not want to go back to that sort of thing.