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Bumblebee

Making the GT6 a bit more sprint/hillclimby?

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Since the rolling road extravaganza I have been kicking about the idea of maybe doing something a little bit exciting with the 6 . 

However money and a distinct lack of ever having done anything motorsporty bar moto x in the 90s, when we all used 2 strokes will be limiting . I don't want to trailer the car everywhere so I need to be able to drive to events, and the car is used by me and the 13 year old lad at weekends for hooning about in and generally making excessive noise.

So at the moment the car spec is as follows

2 litre GT6 on triple webers with a TLD r2 cam totally fresh, block decked, ported head with oversize inlets (a TLD jobby) balanced, lightened flywheel, megajolt, oil cooler with stat, standard box with O/D and diff, 6-3-1 phoenix iffy fitting manifold, stainless single bore rear pipe and cooled by a thermostat controlled puller fan. Rad is standard.

Suspension wise... front Avos (currently leaking) with 8 inch 480lb springs of unknown vintage , Avos on rear, late GT6 mk3 swing spring which I think has been de-arched as it sits low but there is no lowering block. Braking is standard apart from Mintex1144 front pads, and a dubious and ineffective/broken self adjusting rear shoe setup. The whole lot sit on revolutions with the wrong ET offset shod with Goodyear Efficiency 175/70/13 tyres

Safety wise. ... Nothing.  Standard interior, standard seats standard boot area. Standard clocks apart from a dual temp/oil pressure gauge.

So I need to prioritise what I am going to spend on what, in which order over the winter in order to maybe have a dig at something with minor competition, but that allows me to drive there and back and removes the chances of me hitting someone else's pride and joy, and generally being a spode (which was what we called junior riders in moto x days) on a track. 

For me safety comes first, but I need to be led by guys on here who know their onions as to what needs to be done. I need some kind of cage... I am over 6-2 so a full cage will make getting in and out iffy I think , but I bow to the advice of others. So I need to find one/get one made. I want proper multipoint harnesses, probably that I can clip in and out, as I think keeping 3 points in there for normal road driving would be sensible. I want decent seats that are safe and will let me get in and out. There are loads out there, but will I get them in the car and still get me in ? I say them as if I am having harnesses and Seat, lad will too as a matter of principle! He helps me with stuff so I cant complain. Do I need to enclose the fuel tank, currently just mdf boards over the top. I need an electrical kill switch as no poor sod will ever find the keys half way down the steering column. Fire extinguisher I assume (I've not read any regs and I may as well wait till next year to join MSA or whoever I need . Is there anything else safety wise I need to think of.

Next off is suspension/handling...

I need to upgrade shocks on front so they are non leaking. Protech would be the way to go?, if I can get them to answer their phone ever? Maybe some adjustable toplinks from Canleys? or is this unnecessary? Polybush the lot I assume , although which brand to use is another question. I need to measure the anti roll bar to see what is on there already Following that a full 4 wheel alignment from somewhere. probably Micheldever tyres in , er , Micheldever. They do a lot of old school stuff I think. Maybe adjustable drop links as the standard things are cack.

Then there is kit for me . Helmet and suit and gloves and boots? The lid needs to be full face, I am sorry but that comes from Moto x days, watching mates with open face lids lose teeth puts you off, and even inside a car it will be full face.  Any suggestions of best place to get kit will be a bonus.

I think braking will be fine in sprints or hill climbs, as long as I keep manually adjusting rears to avoid long pedal strokes?

Finally and as a complete aside maybe I , having spent money jetting my carbs will maybe  choke them back to 28 from 30. Give it some real snap off the bottom, and the expense of a bit of top maybe? I suppose that's just a cases of suck it and see. 

So ... 

sorry about the length of this message. I am basically saying, I've never done anything car related, I don't know where to start, safety comes before everything else, so what do I need to do to go and do some fun but not expense prohibiting motor sport. 

I can weld after a fashion, but not to safety effective standards, but can have a go at most other things. Alan OTU is going to dig some stuff up for me to read too as I asked him off forum when deciding if I was going to go for it at all.

So get stuck in guys and girls.... point me in the right direction. Most of you will have more Triumph experience than me, and a lot of you more motor sport. I will need your support, as the thought of competitive motor sport makes me really nervous, but as we used to say back then, "when the gate drops, the bullshit stops"

 

 

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I would think long and hard about what you actually want to do, and then the regs will say what you need, or even can't have.

A good way to start may be a few Classic friendly Tackdays? The TRR ones re pretty good and indeed cheap, or MGoT are a decent bunch too. Just need a helmet...

The other way in for zero costs is an autosolo or 2, nothing required except a road legal car. You can have a lot of fun for £30..... (CT have one coming up at Curborough at the end of October, worth a punt if you fancy something like that. Could do with some more entries....)

Next would be the TRR sprint and hillclimb series, which seems a good way forward if you want something a tad more "official" and less grassroots. Sadly my car is ineligable being only partly Triumph!

Just my tuppence worth

 

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Some very good advice from Clive - pretty much what I would have written myself. 

Only additions would be to select your track days carefully. TRR ones are excellent, not sampled any others myself but have heard a couple of unpleasant stories about generic "all makes" days.

Only other thing is if contemplating "real" motorsport is to make sure that you properly look at the associated costs of all the mandatory equipment. This for the car (certified cage etc) but also your clothing. The MSA have (IMO) gone a bit too far with the requirements at clubman level, especially with thinks like equipment life and mandatory expiry dates and created an unreasonably high cost burden.

Also worth looking up you local all-makes motor clubs who may run things like 12Car navigational rallies, autotests/autosolos and the like, often with more open classes and regulations.

Nick

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Reading this with interest as it's what I want to have a bash at I am similar in the fact I have never driven competitively but raced international motorcycles for years including the TT so I understand the equipment side of things and scutineering, I am only just starting my build so i am a long way off but I plan on going to a few meetings to watch, I used to race at olivers mount in scarborough which also did hill climbs but I think they are waiting for someone to take over the running of the events, so will have to go further afield,regards wayne

 

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Nick, I have done a couple of "Taster" sessions at Brands. Not a great experience, too many knobs with rather more ego than skill in cars they don't care about. Hence I only suggested TRR and the MGoT ones. People with classics (even MGFs!) are respectful and take care of their cars, thankfully. I have no doubt that other clubs trackdays are good too, but I am wary of general ones. 

I reckon you ought to pop up to the CT 'solo. Not sure how far it is for you though.... I am sure Chris would love it:biggrin:

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Thanks for the input so far guys. 

For me the "dodgy" side of track days frankly is the fact I will be learning from scratch how to drive a car quickly, and I don't want to be a mobile chicane going slowly on a track day and end up picking a wrong line/ making a schoolboy error and taking myself and anyone else out. Hence thinking sprints and such as its just me to take me out. And no one to take me out in their eurobox with huge exhaust pipe and bolt on dump valve.

The other thing I should have said quite clearly is the safety side is non negotiable for me, at least on cabin strengthening. I would do it for any sport even remotely competitive and probably even to do the odd trackday. I've seen fairly dramatic things happen in practice sessions on moto x  practice tracks, and I am sure the same has happened on road car track days. I dont mind throwing a few bob at safety, and the rest of it is based around the fact I know what will happen. I will back of the field a few events, then start improving, then its...... well if I spent this on that........ 

I have to admit the lure of a few sprints against the clock is strong, although I am sure the odd trackday would help me learn the car considerably quicker. Its all good advice though so thanks. Maybe finding a trackday with "sensible people " and maybe a passenger even to sit in would be a good "learn the car" experience. There is also a local club who run events at Eelmoor near me , so I will contact them too. 

As an aside ...

Wayne! You road race boys are certifiably insane, but hey you got out of it alive so all's good! 

 

 

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The MGoT days have bookable pro tuition (though you are hard pressed to hear what they are saying!) and certainly the TRR ones often have people who will sit in and offer informal guidance. That is possibly the best way to start, so you can get a feel for things. They also tend to session inexperienced drivers together, but in all honesty I have never felt in danger from anybody else. And my daughter (who is tiny and inexperienced) has been out and enjoyed herself, finding other drivers again very respectful and giving space. Really, if you want to go down that sort of route, having a go is the best way to start!

BTW I am nothing other than a have a go-er who has zero talent but enjoys a track day or two and indeed autosolos (which are always slow, rare to get over 40mph!)

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bumblebee, I wouldn't be worried about being a mobile chicane at all,just be aware of everyone but at the same time let everyone do there thing they will pass when they need to, If you have never driven or ridden on a circuit it's a lot wider unless your doing hill climbs, I would say concentrate on having a well set up car that you can drive ok and build up experience and be able to learn, It amazed me the amount of bikes that were falling apart at scrutineering I spent all of my time building a good bike that I could ride fast and not have to think it was going to fall apart mid corner, although anything can happen it is something less to think about if everything is prepared well. I raced Gp 125 and 600's and learnt to ride quickly but smoothly and this then gave faster lap times and consistent  laps.

The less you have to fight something the easier it is to get quicker and also be able to learn what works. I can only think this will translate to cars and I am under no illusion that I will be anything other than a novice in a car,regards wayne

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Both my boys first drove my Vitesse at Castle Coombe on TRR track days (pissing rain, both occasions). We certainly weren't getting in other people's way. The "just like play station" boys did keep my adrenaline levels topped up though! Have to say that PS practice may have saved our bacon when the younger one came into Quarry a bit hot as he got back on the power and drifted it round rather than just sliding off into the tyres........

Truly a good way to learn the limits and what the car does on the limit - as is an autosolo. The CT one is unfortunately a solid 4 hour drive each way for me, which is tempering my enthusiasm......

Nick

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All good advice!   The MSA publishes its criteria for safety in the Blue Book (the annual Yearbook) and you don't need a to get a licence to read that as it's online: https://www.msauk.org/assets/156-195commonregulationsforcompetitorssafetyk-3.pdf .    The new chairman, Dave Richards, has already started to look at the lifing of safety kit, and other ways of ensuring that 'used' harness or roll cages are renewed as necessary, not just when the year rolls by.     And anyway, if you stick to track days (GOOD idea!) that won't matter.

Where to buy your kit?    Roll cages: http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/4501-gt6-rollcage-suppliers/  Personal kit, I go to a local shop, who know the market, and within reason can offer me a range of, say, helmets to try.  (NB  HANS or other "Frontal Head Restraint", FHR, is IMHO esssential).    They are Road & Stage Motorsport, in Morecambe, http://www.rsmmotorsport.co.uk/  (give the lovely Julie a ring!) but find one in your area.

Seats.  Will, now or soon, your 13 YO be driving? They can in say Autosolos once 16 yo.  Then a seat that will take an insert for each of you is ideal.   Kirkey seats do this, and are extraordinarily comfortable (they don't look it!) even without an insert.    By insert, I mean a polyurethane block moulded to your own backside.  This is Kirkey's own video, but the principles apply everywhere.  

John

 

 

Edited by JohnD

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Cheers all.

I agree with Wayne's comment that a well set up car lets you concentrate more on what you are doing , and thats a large part of starting this thread, where to spend the money thats left after safety has been sorted.

I have however totally changed my attitude with regard to trackdays though. Clearly those that have done it say its safe and a great way to learn both my , and the car's limits , so that will be a 100 percent do for next year. I dont have a playstation though, so I may be in trouble:blink: . Be nice to meet a few forumites too here and there.

Next I am off to check out John's links. The nipper  loves the 6, he wants to drive it , but I have told him no carpark fun until he is 14. 

right, here comes an hour reading blue book and working out what it means to me

thks again for all the advice. It really is appreciated.

 

Andy

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4 hours ago, JohnD said:

    The new chairman, Dave Richards, has already started to look at the lifing of safety kit, and other ways of ensuring that 'used' harness or roll cages are renewed as necessary, not just when the year rolls by.     And anyway, if you stick to track days (GOOD idea!) that won't matter.

Seats.  Will, now or soon, your 13 YO be driving? They can in say Autosolos once 16 yo.  Then a seat that will take an insert for each of you is ideal.   Kirkey seats do this, and are extraordinarily comfortable (they don't look it!) even without an insert.    By insert, I mean a polyurethane block moulded to your own backside. 

 

Just to follow up on John's points, and whilst not deliberately trying to detract from them it raises an important point, in that you have to decide what is you want to do with the car, John races his Vitesse and is covered by an entirely different set of regulations to those of us who Sprint and Hill Climb in cars classed as roadgoing, and get even more complex as at some events where the TRR quite often has its own Class, some cars within that class will compete as roadgoing and some as modified, and the requirements and scrutineering are different for them. 

For example if I turned up at a Sprint or Hill Climb entered in a Road Going Class I would be excluded if I had a Kirkey seat fitted, as whilst I am allowed a competition seat the road going regs require that it must be fully trimmed!  Likewise the regs covering harnesses and cages (ROPS) are entirely different. Actually I would be allowed a Kirkey seat, its just that then the car wouldn't be roadgoing it would be modified and everything else on the car would then be inspected and scrutineered according to modified regs.  Likewise Harness dates,  FIA ROPS specifications, FHR requirements are not part of Roadgoing Sprint & Hill Climb regulations.

So its important to understand the rules and regulations of what you intend to do before you start doing virtually anything to the car, otherwise its easy to find you are neither Fish nor Fowl.

Alan 

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Re autosolos, I have just entered on eat Kemptom Park next month. I noticed that the regs allow anybody over 14 to enter in  a car up to 2litre (not forced induction!) but they must have a passenger who is "experienced" in autosolos. Guess that means done a few....

Just a thought.......

(and I like John posted thought that it was 16 for autosolos, but 14 for PCA's, (autotests), usually on grass. Solos are forwards only, which is a lot less faff:smile:

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Autotests involving reversing up the risk of transmission issues, especially on cars already feeble in this area (small chassis Triumphs all qualify, but especially 6 pot ones). Grass ones possibly a bit less damaging, dependent on how bumpy.

Both auotests and auto solos can be tyre shredders - depends a lot on the venue surface. I (with some help from a double driver) once completely shredded a set of tyres on a single event. They literally had rubber hanging off them. Blandford camp...... not many that bad fortunately!

Nick

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10 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Just to follow up on John's points, and whilst not deliberately trying to detract from them it raises an important point, in that you have to decide what is you want to do with the car, John races his Vitesse and is covered by an entirely different set of regulations to those of us who Sprint and Hill Climb in cars classed as roadgoing, and get even more complex as at some events where the TRR quite often has its own Class, some cars within that class will compete as roadgoing and some as modified, and the requirements and scrutineering are different for them. 

For example if I turned up at a Sprint or Hill Climb entered in a Road Going Class I would be excluded if I had a Kirkey seat fitted, as whilst I am allowed a competition seat the road going regs require that it must be fully trimmed!  Likewise the regs covering harnesses and cages (ROPS) are entirely different. Actually I would be allowed a Kirkey seat, its just that then the car wouldn't be roadgoing it would be modified and everything else on the car would then be inspected and scrutineered according to modified regs.  Likewise Harness dates,  FIA ROPS specifications, FHR requirements are not part of Roadgoing Sprint & Hill Climb regulations.

So its important to understand the rules and regulations of what you intend to do before you start doing virtually anything to the car, otherwise its easy to find you are neither Fish nor Fowl.

Alan 

Alan is spot on ( as usual). 

The MSA regs will govern your overall safety and modification rules this way forward. Given your chosen motorsport.

The competition championship you choose will then refine this. 

Some may even  seem contradictory. Eg MSA have tyres lists. Your championship will allow a certain listing for a given class. ( eg road going, modified road going, race etc). Non original tyres size may rule you out or bump you up a class. 

 

I compete with Alan but in a 1959 TR3a so there are other dispensations due to the cars age. Not all make sense eg I can use original seats ( non tilt non headrest) I don’t need a roll bar. But I do need a seatbelt. !!!!

i have chosen to have seat with headrest roll bar and 4 point harness. 

Personal safety equipment. 

Again the MSA rule book is your guide. Min for what Alan and I do is flameproof race suit and gloves and a compliant helmet. 

Hedtech do compliant helmets that are less expensive. Just didn’t suit my head so went to bell. 

Driver training. 

Classic car track days are great as people are more respectful. 

TRR do castle Combe did my first this year after doing a year of sprints competition! for track time it’s great value. 

Shelsley Walsh do driver training. 

https://www.shelsleywalsh.com/driving-school

not done it myself. 

 

I learnt the courses off youtube ;-)

this is this years TRR regs so you can see how things work for us.

https://www.tr-register.co.uk/uploads/2017/12/22/2018-Regulations.pdf

 

and I am far from being any good (this is my second year in this champs) but my competition and wet track day runs are here. 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrXjQt8CiQNaGDrjhmPLqMA

but it is great fun !!!!

h

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2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Autotests involving reversing up the risk of transmission issues, especially on cars already feeble in this area (small chassis Triumphs all qualify, but especially 6 pot ones). 

Both auotests and auto solos can be tyre shredders - depends a lot on the venue surface.

Yep used to autotest the Vitesse heavily (or heavy footed!) mid-late 70's, used to recon on 1-2 gearboxes a season, (even learnt how to pull tunnel and change Reverse Lay gear and or Lever in the lunch break).

Tyres can help (ended up raiding Tyre Fitters old pile for Pirelli Cinturatos) fairly hard, not as much grip, so on the rear gave you a bit of slide and also saved the transmission a bit!   Ah the days of changing UJ's for someone over lunch!

Alan

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Yes, all good advice (even mine!), but let's not put off Bumblebee (May we know your real name?) by such details.      I offered the MSA Safety regs as guidelines, as track days usually insist on nothing in that regard, are undoubtedly IMHO the best way to infect the suspectible with the competition bug! 

John

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Thank you all for your input. 

It is Andy John, I did put it in an earlier message but easily missed.

I am going to get a hoop for the rear of the car, I am not sure anyone actually makes one any more off the shelf , but I will check, then sort that and some multi point harnesses for safety. That is the first place to spend, as it will almost certainly never be needed, but if it is the payoff is huge. This will allow me to do trackdays safely, and also allow me to try a sprint or climb if I want to in safety. I also need to fit an electrical cutoff switch in the car, I could just label the ignition but seeing as its miles away down the column a simple switch on the dash will be easier. I also need to work out how to box in the fuel tank, as its in the open boot effectively.  All these are safety points so worth doing in the grand scheme of things anyhow.

The only other things I need to sort out are a leaky front shock, a very low rear end with loads of negative camber and a wheel alignment, and we are good to go, assuming my singe bore phoenix thing is quiet enough. Of course as soon as I start playing suspension it will be poly bushes too, so without doubt I need to budget in stages. I am off to find a ROPS rear first. Maybe safety devices will have their old designs laying about and can knock one up

Thankyou all for your input so far, and for the links. Reading the blue book, you end up taking notes on everything! Tyre lists.... who knew! ( well not me )

I will be sure to let you know when I eventually go somewhere to actually do something, and you can all come and laugh.

Again , thank you to everyone....

Andy

 

 

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Jigsaw may be worth a try for a roll bar. I bought a secondhand one (amazing how many people decide to remove them) and added a diagonal of CDS tube (much thicker wall than the actual hoop)

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Delighted you're taking the safety aspect so seriously, Andy!     Not for you, but if anyone doesn't just show them this: https://www.club.triumph.org.uk/menu/6023/item/167704/view?messagepage=4 (Reply 80)

As Zetec mentions, the diagonal turns a fashion statement into a lifesaver.  Sad to say, the biggest Triumph supplier, Rimmers, sells only fashion statements.    Jigsaw no doubt will get you one, or else contact the makers directly.    They may not market them, but will no doubt have plans and even jigs for the GT6.    If you're in the North West, I recommend Performance and Protection: http://www.ppcages.com/, whose prices, even bespoke, are not high.   And if you are in the North West, I'll be glad to assist if you wish.

I applaud your wish for a cutoff switch, fit one on the dash but add a cable pull on the outside, so that a marshal or anyone else can use it if required.   It's an MSA requirement, but makes great sense.     You probably need the type that dumps the dying alternato output into a large ceramic resistance, to avoid frying the alt.   They have an extra low current switch  and contacts in the base.

John

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No I'm dahn sarf.

But good pointers. I will get on it this week. I looked at your CT link John.. Interesting. and in the case of that Spit.... messy

Zetec, I see you are at Kempton Park in a couple of weeks. I may come and say hello. I live a few junctions up the M3 these days, but grew up only 5 miles from there. We used to go to the nature trail round the back , dunno if its still there, and fish for perch using a bit of line and a stick. It was 40 years ago mind you.

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27 minutes ago, Bumblebee said:

 

Zetec, I see you are at Kempton Park in a couple of weeks. I may come and say hello. I live a few junctions up the M3 these days, but grew up only 5 miles from there. We used to go to the nature trail round the back , dunno if its still there, and fish for perch using a bit of line and a stick. It was 40 years ago mind you.

Please do pop along and say hello. There with the lady wife, its her birthday treat!

Spitfire is still a bit dented after a nice lady (really, she was) drove in the back of it. I just need some time over the winter to sort all that out....

Last time I was at Kempton I managed to break the clutch cable, luckily right by the solderless nipple. So after an hours battle in the roasting sun managed to get going again. Lucky too, picked up a bit of silverware. And that is without any real talent:teehee: Marvellous fun though.

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Get your suspension set up properly first, camber, castor, front & rear.

You will probably need more adjustment so check out Jigsaw/ Jon Wolfe for parts, makes a big difference and not too expensive if you can do the alignment yourself, plenty of you-tube videos on that.

RR

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