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JohnD

Superoil?

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Saw a demo today by a company seeking to market their motor oil.    It appeared impressive but I wonder what real-world relevance it has.  Any tribologist experts in the Faculty of Sideways?

The demo used an electric motor to spin an axle with a disposable collar in an oil bath, and pressed a roller bearing to it, so that the roller could not spin.     The pressure was increased until the roller to collar seized.    The pressure was by hand with a beam, like a beam-type torque wrench, and an ammeter dsiplayed the load on the motor.

First, an 'ordinary' motor oil was used, said to be Mobil 1.     After it seized, the roller bearing was shown to have significant wear, a dimple on its surface.

Then the oil bath, collar and roller were washed with brake cleaner, and the bath refilled with the special oil.  The roller to collar point of contact was adjusted to provide a fresh surface.   The test was repeated, but with no seizure, right up to the pressure that caused it before.    Moreoever, when inspected, there was no wear of the roller, only a tiny area that was polished.

This was claimed to be due to additives in the oil, which were admitted to includeover 1000ppm of ZDDP, but also other un-revealed agents.

 

Now, I think this test is way beyond any normal wear process in an engine, in which the oil prevents contact between the surfaces of a bearing by hydrodynamic lubrication.   It shows boundary lubrication, in which the surfaces touch, heat up and wear by friction.     This should never happen in a well-running engine (except a Triumph on start-up, when the OE filter has allowed all the oil to fall back into the sump!).  The company claim increased power, and reduced fuel consumption due to better lubrication, so that their product works in the normally working engine.   

So is it as impressive a test as it appears?  

JOhn

Edited by JohnD

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Hi John

Sorry  I wasn't suggesting that they needed to be read, although a quick Google will turn up a number of descriptions "free" of the main engine oil ASTM tests, what I was implying (badly) was that an oil company doesn't have to come up with a gimiky test to show how good their oil is, just publish the full ASTM test data and the results will show exactly where on the continuum from Super Oil to Snake Oil a particular oil is.

Alan

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I'm sorry, Alan!   Grumpy response, partly due to being tired but also to being 'on the phone'.     Lng replaies not easy for me on the mobile!

I should have thanked you for an answer I would have been proud to produce for myself, pointing to the approved and established tests - which I shall now look for!

And ffind!  First, this video uses exactly the same setup, just different kit, to 'test' an oil: 

 

 

Then, a page and video of the SRV ( "Schwingung, Reibung und Verschleiss"!) test rig that does the approved ASTM and DIN test.

https://www.crodalubricants.com/en-gb/discovery-zone/how-we-test-our-products/schwingung-reibung-verschleib-srv

Thnaks again!  I can show my course colleagues, who were similarly impressed and almost as sceptical, why they were right!

John

Edited by JohnD

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Indeed, it is always easy to come up with a testthat suits your product, be it a magic window cleaning thingy at a bank holiday market, or something to prove the oil is wonderful. And remember all those shiny Mini bonnets used to demo Mer polish?

I wonder if it has high levels of PTFE or suchlike. Slick 50 springs to mind....

Better test. Chuck the oil in a RBRR car, and then test it after the run when hot. See how it does then!

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Hi,

This makes an interesting read if you have a few hours to spare:

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

I don't think I have linked it here before?

I did post the link on the TSSC forum, but it was too much for them as unless it's 20W50, high in ZDDP & is less than a page long; its kak.

I use #6 on the list. Apart from a leak on front crankcase seal, no problems. I run the same in modern, so always have some available.

Cheers,

Iain.

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13 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

Hi,

This makes an interesting read if you have a few hours to spare:

 

Hm see what you mean about needing a few hours, will admit to expending an hour so far, but book marked for further reading.

I can see why a lot of classic petrol heads wouldn't like what he has to say about long held beliefs!

On the whole to me the guy writes sense (even though he could do with being taught to precis) and the test methodology good, also confirmed to me that my anal attention to oil temp for the competition car wasn't a waste of time and effort.

Surprised to find that my English oil choice Millers Syn Nano Tech had got into his testing and just fell into the Incredibly Good band.

Alan

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Haven't read it fully. Find him an arrogant bastard tbh and suspect I would not like to have a beer with him. An usually strong reaction for me!

However, this is not to discount his very considerable work and I shall read it properly when time and energy permits.

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3 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Haven't read it fully. Find him an arrogant bastard tbh and suspect I would not like to have a beer with him. An usually strong reaction for me!

 

Funny but almost exactly my train of thought when reading. If some of the content hadn't chimed as good, I'd have given up reading very quickly.

If he got someone to precis it for him, it could be  a good reference, at the moment its rather like Castor Oil, you know it may help but swallowing it is very unpleasant.  

Alan

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Hi,

 Its contents and belief in a fair amount of it, caused me to get a friendly warning from an admin.

It is a good read. He does repeat the same stuff a lot & when asked to review the document with a view to "cleaning it up"; He replied that he has no time & its free. Fair point. I have had to google precis..

 The contact breaker points paragraphs are only valid IMHO if comparing to transistor assisted systems.

Cheers,

Iain.

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Hi,

 In my quest to find the super oil I found this excellent read for a rainy day:

https://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor Oil 101.htm

20W50 will never touch my engine.

A couple of questions please regarding Triumph 6 cylinder CP/R engine please:

  1. Oil pressure relief valve does not flow as good as it should?
  2. Oil bleed from PRV is returned back to pump inlet?
  3. Galley to oil PRV has no connection for pressure gauge?
  4. Oil pressure gauge/switch is a post filter connection?
  5. Max oil pressure reading is PRV pressure plus filter differential pressure?

Thanks,

Iain.

 

 

 

 

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1. Oil pressure relief valve does not have sufficient capacity to provide full relief (i.e. Maintain a constant pressure). However , this is probably intentional to provide higher oil pressure at higher rpm.

2. Yes PRV overspill returns to the pump inlet on the 6 (but back to dump on 4 pots IIRC.

3. There is a big gallery plug (3/8" bspt) next to the PRV that could serve with a suitable adapter - not sure it would show anything useful though.

4. The usual gauge tapping below the distributor is into the main oil gallery, post filter.

5. I suppose the pre-filter pressure will be a bit higher than post filter pressure an the proportional difference will increase with rpm due to greater flow causing more losses. Probably not by much though. Filters gradually clogging use would also show up. Filters should have an internal relief valve to bypass the element should the differential across it become excessive.

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12 hours ago, spitfire6 said:

 In my quest to find the super oil I found this excellent read for a rainy day:

https://members.rennlist.com/oil/Motor Oil 101.htm

20W50 will never touch my engine.

Hi Ian, as you say a monster tomb! Well done for wading through his various blog posts. Can you briefly précis the guys' argument against 20/50 - I'd naively assumed that we all knew it was inferior but needed to continue to use it because the heat disipation and clearance tolerances of older engines necessitated it?

I'm interested to know what - in the light of the guy's research -  you'd suggest we use in: Needs to be readily available in UK.

a) Newly rebuilt engines & b) old engines with unknown mileage?

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I stumbled across that piece a couple of years back when I was having repeated #5 BE failure.  It was one of the pieces in the jigsaw that helped me complete the picture of what was happening in my engine, and also led to some interesting conversations with people at Millers Oils and Man Filters.

I now use one of the best fully synthetics available, with just enough ZDDP,  As when used the engine is pushed hard I change the oil at least once during the season (it probably doesn't need to be but...) I don't change the filter when I change the oil (Oil filters work better and better as they get towards their expected service life, not less and less effective) I do use a 20W-50, but I do have an temp gauge fitted, and a pre-oiler, so I have oil pressure before the engine turns over, the car doesn't move until the oil temp gets to +40C, and even with an oil/water heat exchanger fitted it can take 10+ mins to do this, I don't ask anything of the engine above a gentle cruise until the oil is in the 60-70C range, it gets to this temp fairly quickly with the heat exchanger, when measuring oil temps before fitting the heat exchanger I was surprised how long oil even when driving takes to get up to  a working temp.

On the moderns/road cars I now use 0W- or 5W- full synthetics.

I think the big lesson I learn't in the execise as that the main difference between mineral and fully synthetics is that the numbers relating to their multi-grade capabilities are referenced from opposite ends.  i.e. if you take an oil described as lets say 10W-40   if its a mineral oil its actually a 10W with additives (that wear out) that make it behave when at working temp as a 40,  whereas a fully synthetic is actually a 40W oil at working temp that actually has the viscosity of a 10W at its cold measuring point and no matter how hard you use it will remain close to a 40W oil.

Alan

PS. Yes it is a pain waiting for oil to warm up, but way way cheaper than rebuilding the engine :yes:

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Hello Alan

                That last paragraph is interesting and I have learnt something new! (not hard to do!)

So I would be better off paying more for say a 10w60 or a 15w40 than the expenive penrite 20w60?

And if I wait for an offer on euro car parts not much more expensive!

Spitty did get a bit hot under the collar this year in the pyrenees

Roger

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I am using the eco 5-40 stuff in my zetecs powered car. Seems to last ok without changing colour too much, which is as scientific as I get. 

But a bit of history raked up from many years ago. John Kipping wrote that the most important thing to making a 1500 engine last was to use Mobil 1 oil. That was one of the first proper synthetic oils about, I remember the advert where they chucked it and "other" oil in a frying pan. Made sense.... Anyway, kipping knows a thing or two about triumphs. And admitted the cars rarely got oil changes (ie several years was the implication) despite having a hard time being driven about as company vans. So something like that has got to be worth using. Saying that, I am happy with miller's CSS 20-60. Works well enough....

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On 10/17/2018 at 11:23 PM, Nick Jones said:

1. Oil pressure relief valve does not have sufficient capacity to provide full relief (i.e. Maintain a constant pressure). However , this is probably intentional to provide higher oil pressure at higher rpm.

2. Yes PRV overspill returns to the pump inlet on the 6 (but back to dump on 4 pots IIRC.

3. There is a big gallery plug (3/8" bspt) next to the PRV that could serve with a suitable adapter - not sure it would show anything useful though.

4. The usual gauge tapping below the distributor is into the main oil gallery, post filter.

5. I suppose the pre-filter pressure will be a bit higher than post filter pressure an the proportional difference will increase with rpm due to greater flow causing more losses. Probably not by much though. Filters gradually clogging use would also show up. Filters should have an internal relief valve to bypass the element should the differential across it become excessive.

Hi Nick,

 Many thanks for that. 
If I may;

  1. I wonder if this is correct because of 20W50?
  2. Cheers.
  3. Would show the PRV pressure and help with measuring oil filter DP. BSPT & not NPT?
  4. What I thought, but best to check.
  5. Pressure blockage would show up if you knew pre/post pressures. I would hate for the bypass valve to ever operate and dump crap oil that I have been filtering for hours. A dirty filter is better at filtering until the PRV pops. Something I need to think about?

Many thanks, Nick. Again.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 8:42 AM, Greta said:

Hi Ian, as you say a monster tomb! Well done for wading through his various blog posts. Can you briefly précis the guys' argument against 20/50 - I'd naively assumed that we all knew it was inferior but needed to continue to use it because the heat disipation and clearance tolerances of older engines necessitated it?

I'm interested to know what - in the light of the guy's research -  you'd suggest we use in: Needs to be readily available in UK.

a) Newly rebuilt engines & b) old engines with unknown mileage?

Hi Greta,

is 20W50 is a very poor choice for a rebuilt or non-worn out the engine? It's what I believe. Rebuilt should not be old clearances. Mobil 0W40 FS is what I run.

Worn out engine burning smoke? Get it off the road.

Iain.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 4:57 PM, rogerguzzi said:

Hello Alan

                That last paragraph is interesting and I have learnt something new! (not hard to do!)

So I would be better off paying more for say a 10w60 or a 15w40 than the expenive penrite 20w60?

And if I wait for an offer on euro car parts not much more expensive!

Spitty did get a bit hot under the collar this year in the pyrenees

Roger

Hi Roger,

 Unless your engine is very loose at normal to hot temperatures, why would you want to choose a 10W60 oil? Penrite is a poor choice IMHO. The Penrite oil is not even synthetic. The Americans might call it synthetic, but it is not. (Thier website says oil is Group III) So, as mentioned by a previous poster: once it gets abused it will get ultra thin. ie. return to SAE10.

Do we remember that fast flowing oil cools much better than thick oil?

There was something else... 

Penrite Data-sheet:

https://www.classic-oils.net/Penrite-HPR15

Something about base oils:

https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups

Cheers,

Iain.

PS. If you want to increase your oil pressure; Fit a better/blueprinted pump and ensure your bearings are good. More pressure and of course cooling flow. Use thick oil and get more pressure on your gauge and a lot less flow. Most damage occurs at startup because of low flow.

 

 

 

Edited by spitfire6
Added more questions.

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There's an old thread about these additives on ten-tenths https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115591 I ran my spitfire with ZX-1 religiously for a couple of years after seeing the same bearing on a lever test and then I didn't again and I've not particularly noticed any difference in wear with or without it.

So I suspect it probably doesn't make that much difference in the engine, they might help in the drivetrain as that's more likely to see the sort of contact used in the test - but then again the test isn't being done with gear oil...

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