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Hamish

Audi emissions group action

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IMO they are all ambulance chasing chancers (nearly the lowest form of life, apart from career politicians) who smell money in the water and are collecting as many names as possible to "strengthen their case".

My own view is that VAG engineered the cars for the best performance and economy whilst "finessing" the fuel economy and emissions figures.  This actually gives the customer/owner the best deal, especially since the actual real world emissions are no worse than much of the competition and better than some (Renault, Nissan etc).  Their error was to overtly build in a test detection system which makes it illegal in some places rather than just relying on cunning mapping, which doesn't.

National governments are already going after VAG for their legal transgressions and their reputation is already damaged.  However, I'm not sure whether any actual damage has been done to car owners (evidence of lost resale value relative to what might have been? Not convinced),  therefore customers who considering signing up to these class actions should think carefully about their true motives.

Don't get me wrong - there are things out there that VAG have done that merit class actions (and have already have had them in USA).  These would relate to shoddy engineering and production practices resulting in major failures costing serious money to correct and even shoddier customer support when they continue to try and charge full whack for what should be covered by warranty or goodwill.

The list could include
-premature gearbox bearing failures (goes back decades)
-premature piston ring failure on TFSI engines causing epic oil consumption and CAT damage
-timing chain/tensioner failures (also BMW)
-common rail injector failures
-oil pump drive failures (amazingly optimistic "engineering" involved in this one!)

Engine remaps to bring them into line with legal requirements that render the car, slower, thirstier and unpleasant to drive could also be added to the list possibly.

I  don't have that much sympathy for the environmental lobby and governments who spent decades nudging (or even pushing) the markets into diesel cars in pursuit of lower CO2 emissions (which diesel does very well), forgetting the penalty on NOx and particulates until forced to reconsider.  One wonders how "green" these hybrid and fully electric vehicles truly are.  Not very, one suspects.

Nick

 

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1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

My own view is that VAG engineered the cars for the best performance and economy whilst "finessing" the fuel economy and emissions figures. 

 

My view from the start was that VAG did nothing that the others wouldn't have done if they'd been smart enough to think of it. Its very simple create a test and say you have to pass this test (in any walk of life) and people will work out how to pass the test/exam, even if as in many tests we forget a good percentage the day afterwards.

The only big mistake VAG made was having an idiot of an MD in the USA, who within 48 hours of the story breaking went on US television and said "we are guilty! They were instantly hung, drawn and quartered. Otherwise VAG could have stuck to the line of "we were doing exactly what was required, ensure our cars passed a test".  and "we can't help it if your Government Test is flawed".

Also agree on the Ambulance Chasing.

Alan

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I think what is so upsetting about VAG is that they actually set out to cheat the test, not just find a way to pass it. That is pretty blatant. Perhaps the other manufacturers did think of doing it but decided it was just too deceitful and considered it to be not worth the risk (of getting caught).

I do not drive a diesel vehicle, never have, never will, although I do have one in my sailing boat as there is no safe alternative at the moment.

I have never believed the environmental argument for diesel and I am pleased that the writing is now on the wall for the devil’s fuel. (Porsche being the latest to signal their abandonment). I know that sitting behind a diesel  vehicle that is belching  smoke could not right even if it was doing a few more mpg than my petrol car. (probably quite a lot more actually, but let’s not go there)

The fact that road tax is still based on CO2 emissions only is frankly a scandal and there are now so many vehicles on the road that pay ridiculously low or no tax that the system really is broken. In my humble opinion there should be four elements to road tax:

  1. % for road use that everyone pays

  2. % for CO2

  3. % for NOX

  4. % for particulates

And another thing whilst I’m on the subject, cars (and all other diesel vehicles) fitted with particulate filters should not be able to just blow them out on the open road, they should collect and store the soot and the car should cease to function when the filter is full.

Is electric or hybrid the way to go. Who really knows, but there must be lots of nasties in all those batteries.

Ian

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Thanks for the input. 

I guess the answer is no. 

The  A5 tdi Sportback Quattro is a good  hatchback tow car. 

And I could do with a rebate. 

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I suppose the core questions are

1. Do you feel seriously wronged because the car, like most others, from most manufacturers, at the time is not as clean as it was touted to be?

2. Did you buy it because it was alleged to be clean or because it goes well, is good on fuel, is nice to drive and you like the looks?

3. Has the resale value realistically suffered to a significant extent due to the whole issue of diesel emissions?

The answer to 3 might be yes, but I suspect not as much as the ambulance chasers would like to suggest and hardly at all relative to other diesel makes - I think the whole diesel market has been affected, regardless of make - partly due to this dishonesty, but also due to growing realisation that the complex emissions control systems have made modern diesels vulnerable to very expensive failure.

Strong suspicion that the realistic chance of a "rebate" is very small and a decent size rebate still smaller........

Nick

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I don't see why you feel your due a rebate? Assume nothing is wrong with the actual vehicle? Your not out of pocket due to this?

Americas 'blame' culture is rife over here now

 

You are correct in saying your Audi is a great car/tow vehicle :)

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Nick, your points encompass the situation in respect of the class action well.  I believe they are all ambulance chasers.

However, I have been disgusted by VW's behavior.   The EPA in the states are known to take this really seriously and issue very substantial fines wherever they can.  Their regulations even require manufacturers to comply with the word and the spirit of the regulations.

There is plenty of precedent.  The US truck engine manufacturers were all found to be cheating, and those with a US business entity were given massive fines, and asked to introduce the next Tier of emissions reduction technologies early (this is a brief summary, but search "consent decree US highway truck" for more....  https://www.dieselnet.com/news/2001/06epa.php)

Why did VW think they could get away with it?  They deserve massive fines from the governments of all territories they sold these engines into - exceeding the profits they made from the vehicle sales.  Unfortunately the European VCA is a toothless puppy compared to the EPA, so I'm not sure they have the gumption to do anything about it.

...yes others have cheated, and the German manufacturers (are known to...?) collude on such matters.  Mitsubishi over inflating their tyres is really not in the same league though....!

 

 

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Don't have any argument with the above. 

The core of my point is that it for governments and/or international agencies to go after them (and others) and punish them.

class action type approaches could then deal with any damages caused to the individual owners, and this is where I struggle bit because I'm not convinced that there is much actual damage beyond a feeling of having been duped as the cars are very decent performers and not any dirtier than much of the competition.  From my fairly extensive reading on the subject, such harm as there is to the end user comes if they are unwise enough to accept the offer of a software "upgrade" to make the cars compliant. This seems to substantially downgrade performance and economy in many cases and would be valid cause for complaint and compensation. However, these upgrades are not (in U.K. at least) mandatory.

As for why did they do it...... suspect it was a cascade of someone junior being a bit too smart and creating the thing in the first place as a clever technical fix (which was arguably legal in many parts of the world at the time) without the remotest inkling of the potential risks, which was then signed off by successive levels of management who should have known better because by then they had got used to having their cake and eating it. They may have thought they'd get away with it. Having worked for German manufacturing companies for the last 20 years I cay say with some authority that arrogance is plentiful and they really hate warranty claims as it means admitting less than perfection.

As I already said above, there are unfortunately plenty of examples of shoddy engineering that have caused significant financial harm and difficulties to significant numbers of people, which are more than worthy of class action. Some of them have been successfully contested in the USA and even resulted in recalls (which should have been made without the legal action). Frustratingly the same things are still denied as being known issues here.

I find it all rather depressing as I've had excellent service from older VAG products. They used to know how to build exceptional durable and reliable vehicles. I doubt I'll buy another, more modern one though. This for reliability reasons rather than emissions concerns.

Nick

ps. hope Hamish is not feeling picked on - not my intent!

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Not feeling picked on at all. 

Not sure I should have taken up the offer of re-programming tho !!

i bought the diesels at a time when it was recommended and was doing the right thing.  Now it seems I am a pariah for doing so.

but having towed the line my whole  life  and seen others win out with dodgy deals and rule breaking. I may just, on this occasion go with a claim. 

Having looked at part ex it’s only Audi that are willing to look at a fair price. Others are now tutting and muttering that it’s a diesel and an Audi one at that so can’t offer you much. !!

the end result is that I will now have to stick with this car for a very long time.

So may be. Just may be I may give a claim a go. 

And if I get anything I will put it into my TR3a to keep that going until all carbon fuels are illegal. 

 

Edited by Hamish

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Glad you don't feel got at Hamish, it was not my intent to make it personal!

I see it like the airline compensation thing. I fly for work, and see many delays. Most of the time I consider that par for the course, but on the occasion Lufthansa gave very late notification, and I had to drive 3 hours across Austria to catch an alternative flight (and made it just in time with no time for a calming drink); they owed me. The £200 compo bought me plus wife dinner, and some of the remainder went to my choice of good a good cause.

I have no guilt in driving older cars. In reality my GT6 emits more noxious gas in 10 minutes of running than 10 emissions cheating VW's running for an hour each.  We are improving things (go to London, spend the day, and relish the fact that you're not coughing up black crap for the next 24 hours as proof). But the manufacturers have a corporate responsibility they need to take seriously.  It's not a game.....

Typed on phone, so sorry for grammar and speelling.......

 

 

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.... Oh, and once carbon fuels are banned I'll make a still and brew some alcohol fuel to get my fix of internal combustion engines

 

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Oh yeah!

Bet it rots fuel pipes! I need some 5/16" sae 'r14 pipe. Phoned the local suppliers who were hopeless.  I see Moss sell the gates barricade stuff. Think I'll order from them (unless anyone has a better source that uses genuine suppliers?).

Cheers all,. Will.

 

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I use these people in congleton for all my pipe work/ brake lines etc

http://www.liningsandhoses.co.uk/

They are great for looking in the stores for something that will work.

Like I got a large diameter silicone pipe that i cut to length and is perfect for my filler cap to petrol tank on my 3a a devil to fit if original rubber.

you need to find a similar supplier to the commercial trade. 

C5BFA248-26C1-416A-ABD7-B9BB15EF912F.jpeg

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11 hours ago, Hamish said:

There is always this stuff but it’s a bit expensive 

 

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/sunoco-methanol-racing-fuel-aaormethanol-25/

 

but you can add castrol R and that smells wonderful. 

I see they do a whole range including leaded for historic racers which is even more expensive.

I also have no guilt about driving smelly old cars including a particularly noxious older diesel. I'm making maximum use of their embedded carbon and the smelly older diesel actually has very good CO2 emissions even by today's standards (being largely unencumbered by wasteful emissions control gear!).

For me the most important aspect is CO2 with it's clear planet-wide consequences. The NOx and particulates have mainly local effects on city dwelling humans and there are far too many of them anyway. Misanthrope? Me?

Nick

 

 

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Don’t worry Alan. I won’t be using it. I can just about stretch to shell v power in the 3a. 

You doing anymore events ?

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On 9/25/2018 at 6:44 PM, gt64ever said:

Is electric or hybrid the way to go. Who really knows, but there must be lots of nasties in all those batteries.

 

Ian

At the risk of a slight thread shift, Renault did a whole-life analysis of their mid-range saloon in a electric vs petrol comparison about seven years ago.  In the meantime, the metric may have shifted even further in electricity's favour, but over a 10-year, 150,000km life, electricity had a significantly lower carbon footprint than petrol when everything from cradle to grave was taken into consideration.

https://group.renault.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/fluence-acv-2011.pdf

As the owner of the world's thirstiest diesel, it is not a fact I share with a light heart.

Paul

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Hello Paul,

 

was this research carri  dout in France where most of their power is nuclear. In the U.K. electric cars will be fuelled by fossil fuelled generation which will alter the picture dramatically.

Alec

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Especially since the carbon costs of nuclear are never properly reported with failure to consider indirect factors like fuel reprocessing and plant decommissioning.

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Hello Nick,

those will be relatively small given the total amount of electricity generated over the life of the station.

Alec

 

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Hi Alec

On page 91 of the report, there is a graph which addresses this difference.  It shows (claims?) that the higher fossil-fuel source of UK power impacts on the whole-life carbon footprint of an EV used here.

Paul

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