JohnD Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) As I have told, I built an engine rig, for pulley testing. It's been lying fallow since the winter, and I went to recommission it. It has an on-board fuel tank, adapted from a green plastic 5L can, with a dip tube made from some copper microbore pipe, bought at my local DiY. Look what's happened to it! It's corroded and green! Can't recall what fuel I put in but probably, as I often have a part can available, it would have been Shell V-plus 98 octane. Could it be that over time, the ?5%? alcohol in that has attracted water that has led to this effect? Or is it something in the fuel? I'v discarded the fuel left in the 'tank', and plan to pump some fuel through, to see it there are 'bits' in it, If so, I'll have to revise the fuel pick-up, and I'' do so anyway in time. John Edited August 28, 2018 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Wouldn't argue with your analysis John. Don't have any better suggestions....... Impressive colour change! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 (edited) Worse, the Facet solid-state pump (behind the fuel 'tank' tray) has failed! It pumped at first, then only a very little dribble, and what came out had white 'bits' in it. Another sacrifice to modern fuels, I fear. Ho,hum, science must progress. I'll try to find another pump tomorrow. JOhn PS Further thought - Copper is further up the 'Galvanic Table' than Aluminium. If the fuel formed an electrolyte, then galvanic corrision could have caused even more attack on the aluminium of the pump than the copper tube! Wonder if 'fuel stabliser' could prevent it, else I should pump that tank dry after every test session. Edited August 28, 2018 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Or try methanol that will have dissolved everything before the end of the session Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 V Power 98 can be up to 5% ethanol, and Ethanol is hydroscopic and attacks copper and its alloys. Ordinary 95 pump gas can be up tp 10% - Cheers EU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 And if you think the current E5ish stuff is bad, the E10 95 they sell in Europe, and now to become the norm in the UK is chemical death to older cars. Even my modern Honda engine hates it and drops power noticeably. Thank God for 102 Octane ARAL rocket fuel sold at pumps in Germany! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kusanagi Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I had my injection pump in my old bmw pack up and when I took the pump apart this was full of corrosion on the commutator ( a quick clean and it worked again ), I can only agree that it must be water in the fuel caused by the ethanol attracting it because that there was no other way for water to get in the tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Faith easy to get the ethanol out of gas if you want some that will keep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 29, 2018 Author Share Posted August 29, 2018 Scarey. Quite apart from gallons of petrol in glass jars and light polypropylene bottles, what does it do to the octane rating? OK for chain saws, but high compression engines?? Adding octane booster gets very expensive! But also scarey for our cars. I've replaced my fuel dip tube with a steel pipe. I used short lengths of copper as connectors eleswhere - have to replace them too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Esso Premium 97 guaranteed to have zero Ethanol (currently) Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 3 hours ago, JohnD said: Scarey. Quite apart from gallons of petrol in glass jars and light polypropylene bottles, what does it do to the octane rating? OK for chain saws, but high compression engines?? Adding octane booster gets very expensive! But also scarey for our cars. I've replaced my fuel dip tube with a steel pipe. I used short lengths of copper as connectors eleswhere - have to replace them too. Not terribly scary, you happily pump gallons of the stuff about on a forecourt. what will it do to our cars? E10 will make very short work of any copper or it’s alloys in fuel systems, and steel tanks will not survive contact - tank liner? E10 eats most brands of that too. Stainless steel or alloy tanks will become a must have. And Just you wait till we get E20! Not only is Ethanol bad forcars, it’s a socio-economic disaster causing food shortages, surging prices and civil unrest across large parts of the developing world as 3rd world farmers switch from food to biofuel crops to keep American and Europeans green credentials ticked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 I washed ou the can/tank and found all this! And the pump is toast. I filled with with injector cleaner and then ran it for ages recicrulating that with some oil in the fuel. Still dribbles. A new pmp delivers fuel to the carbs, but the float chamber floods, so probably I need to strip and clean those. Ho,HUm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulAA Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 By way of comparison, the following article draws attention to the weakness of the ethanol argument. http://www.corrosionpro.com/blog/my-thoughts-on-ethanol-in-fuels/ On the basis that his control group doesn't even amount to an handful of cars, his conclusion might be defined as anecdotal, but the potential that 10% ethanol might actually increase the underlying quantity of petrol needed to cover a given distance is interesting. There is, of course, a conspiracy theory behind it, but the suggestion of vested interests in ethanol production and sale do seem... plausible. John, could acetobactoer sp. be your culprit? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulAA Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Ha! Petroleum-eating bacteria... that has just reminded me of the future history exercise that students undertook in 1990 and published online as 'Enigma'. You can find it here and most entertaining it is too. Bearing in mind that this was written before the collapse of the Soviet Union and the reunification of Germany, its observations are remarkably prescient. One phrase that caught my eye was: "In 2022, Donald Trump is attacked and killed by a swarm [of killer bees] in Connecticut..." Uff.... four years still to go... It predicts that petroleum-eating bacteria would be discovered in the early 2020s and then hijacked by terrorists. But it also predicts global warming long before it was fashionable to know about it, global water shortages, increasing religious and political extremism, even the emergence of China as an economic power. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 hours ago, PaulAA said: By way of comparison, the following article draws attention to the weakness of the ethanol argument. http://www.corrosionpro.com/blog/my-thoughts-on-ethanol-in-fuels/ On the basis that his control group doesn't even amount to an handful of cars, his conclusion might be defined as anecdotal, but the potential that 10% ethanol might actually increase the underlying quantity of petrol needed to cover a given distance is interesting. There is, of course, a conspiracy theory behind it, but the suggestion of vested interests in ethanol production and sale do seem... plausible. John, could acetobactoer sp. be your culprit? Paul The higher the percentage of ethanol, the more fuel you will burn to cover the same distance. Ethanol has lower energy density and higher stochiometric ratio so requires a higher proportion of fuel to air. This fact, not conspiracy theory. At 5% it isn't really noticeable, at 10%, it is. And 10% is enough to lean the mix beyond the self correction capabilities of even some fairly modern vehicles, forcing them to run lean. With carbs, the same applies. E85 requires fuel volumes some 30% higher than petrol. In the U.K. At least it costs the same or more...... so why would you?! So, with E10, you will use more fuel. Should be taxed less because it's "greener" to compensate for this maybe. Bet it isn't though. It's not greener either - arguably less green in fact, dependent on the origins of the ethanol. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Nick Jones said: The higher the percentage of ethanol, the more fuel you will burn to cover the same distance. Ethanol has lower energy density and higher stochiometric ratio so requires a higher proportion of fuel to air. This fact, not conspiracy theory. At 5% it isn't really noticeable, at 10%, it is. And 10% is enough to lean the mix beyond the self correction capabilities of even some fairly modern vehicles, forcing them to run lean. With carbs, the same applies. E85 requires fuel volumes some 30% higher than petrol. In the U.K. At least it costs the same or more...... so why would you?! So, with E10, you will use more fuel. Should be taxed less because it's "greener" to compensate for this maybe. Bet it isn't though. It's not greener either - arguably less green in fact, dependent on the origins of the ethanol. Nick Hello All Perhaps we should all buy VW Diesels? they are said to be very economical ? ignore the soot bits(can not spell particulates!) Roger ps problem solved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Been running a VAG diesel for the last 15 years. It is very economical......... Joke is that the "evil" VAG diesels are actually cleaner in terms of NOx emissions than a whole bunch of contemporary Renaults, Nissans and Dacias...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 There was much green ‘no way,’ in the States when a whole life study of cars revealed the ‘greenest’ car was a 4.00 litre Jeep.... last for ever, whole life impact low. The much lauded ‘green’ Prius, if you include the environmental impact of its huge rare earth filled battery is a filthy thing. Nick makes a good point out the old VW diesel, it’s a legendary thing, the new ‘OM’ diesel that was also a legend in durability. But, the car industry doesn’t want cars to run for half a million or more trouble free miles with just an odd oil and filter change, no money in that. The moneys in servicing, and these modern Euro 6 engines need lots of expensive servicing. We’re going to see a forced scrappage scheme soon to drive all the pre Euro 5, you can service them yourself, no DPF, can run on cooking oil diesels off the road. The car industry and tax man is right behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Met my old boss a few days back. He was the first user of my current daily driver having it new as a company car and for the first 4 years of it's life, doing something like 80k in that time. He was a bit surprised to discover that it is still going, has covered well over 300k and is still on the original, unmolested mechanicals. He's on company car number 6 since handing this one back....... He remembers it fondly because he's never had a car, before or since, that would go so far on a tank of fuel. He has a story about a near "breakdown" in the C5 A6 he had after mine when he nearly ran out of fuel in the wilds of Scotland in the middle of the night en-route to visit his parents in Aberdeen. My A6 would make the journey from Somerset to Aberdeen on a single tank and have enough left for weeks running around and it never occurred to him that new one wouldn't do the same! Both diesel, both 2.5. Newer V6 rather less good at converting diesel into motion than the old S5! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted September 3, 2018 Author Share Posted September 3, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 1:50 PM, PaulAA said: John, could acetobactoer sp. be your culprit? Nice one Paul, but no. The green deposits in mine were hard, granular, not the gelatinous biofilm of a bacterial colony, and no smell of acetic acid, the oxidation product of fermenation of ethanol by bacteria to vinegar! John (slow response due to weekend at Bo'ness Revival) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulAA Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 John Hope you have pictures to share of Bo'ness! Dang... should have read your original description properly. By way of comparison, I replaced parts of my fuel line with 5/16th copper pipe last year. I inspected it over the weekend and, bearing in mind that the notional E10 we have here is commonly understood to have a 'flexible' ethanol content, the short section of the pipe interior I can see looks remarkably clean, despite a long-ish winter interruption this year. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 It's certainly not as simple as "ethanol did it". Ethanol is probably involved - somehow - as a "subversive agent" but is not the whole cause in itself. I have run ethanol containing fuels in the Vitesse since they appeared without any issues apart from it eating substandard fuel hose. Mostly E5 but occasionally E10 when no choice. The same stuff goes in the two mowers and the strimmer (with 2-stroke oil) and I take no special precautions with any of them. No issues. I even ran the Vitesse (briefly and very badly as the result of a mis-fuel) and my old Honda mower on E85. The Honda ran on the E85 for two and a half summer seasons without adjustment. It was a real sod to start from cold and a little down on power, but has suffered no ill effects to this day, and it's probably 10 years since the original incident. The E85 had been knocking around for 3 years by the end and the last few litres were wasted when a rat chewed through the bottom of it's plastic storage container. Perhaps I've been lucky..... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted September 3, 2018 Author Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) I should add. I had a further piece of copper pipe joining two lengths of differently sized tubing. That was free of any green stuff. The dip tube was green right up to the stopper, and the copper vent tube in that, that could not have been dipped in petrol, was also corroded in green. So something in the vapour? And something from Bo'ness. Single cylinder Cooper, originally bump started, no starter motor, no kick start, no started by electric riollers! And the Freikaiservagen, an extraordinary 1930s(?) machine, despite its name being British, not German! https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/october-2002/94/freikaiser-wagen-memories. Some more conventional vintage cars, plus behind, 101, an absolutely gorgeous Jaguar C replica, with original engine. Goodness knows how much that is worth, but the owner was ragging it up the course. Markus Bewley's well prepared Gt6 (97) next to it. Saturday was very "dreich", drizzly to outright rain, but Sunday dried up, adn I was second in class in practice, but developed an oil leak, and retired. Appears to be from where the spin-on adaptor seals to the block. Split O-ring? As you-all know, it's a square section ring, and Markus said he'd seen them twist and lose seal. Anyone else seen this?? JOhn Edited September 3, 2018 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 HI John, had the same oil leak with my GT6, the square seal not properly seated, perhaps too much force used? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 They don't often leak unless they've been disturbed. The seal in my old engine must have been in there at least 25 years - I fitted the spin-on converter and forgot it. It's still there in fact awaiting the engine PM...... Spin on adapter castings have been known to be porous though normally shows up soon after first install! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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