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Spitfire Drive Shafts


rogerguzzi

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Hello All

              I thought I had better start a new thread not clog the other one up

I emailed the suppliers today and recieved 2 replies all as below

Hello Sirs

     I purchased

two Triumph Spitfire Drive
shafts from you on the 04/07/2017     Part No 155928

One of these drive shafts started to make a soft crunching/squeaking noise at about 500 miles but I could not see at the time any fault so I thought it may be a faulty universal joint and carried on using the car for the rest of the summer.

Over the winter months I did a bit more investigating into the noise and found that the yoke had come loose on the drive shaft and all that stopped it coming out of engagement was a ROLL PIN - which was breaking up!!! I have also checked the second shaft, which is still fitted, to the car and this is also showing slight signs of movement having now covered  5,000 road miles.

Triumph fitted a solid pin in this position and we assume their Engineers knew what they were doing as this is a Safety feature and also, on the OE shaft, the yoke is a press fit onto the shaft requiring several tons of pressure to fit it.

As the combination of too loose a fit of the spline and a wholly inadequate pinning method can cause the shaft to pull right out, resulting in the collapse of the rear suspension (and has done so on at least one occasion I am aware of - see link below), I think you need to advise your suppliers of the potential failures of these parts as it could lead to at best badly damaged cars and at worst loss of life with all claims that will bring!  You may also wish to advise your colleagues in the retail sector of this safety risk.

I have attached photos showing the roll pin(as it came out) that just pushed out and the fretting of the shaft where it had been moving in the yoke.  

This drive shaft had only covered 1800 miles

You may also like to read this report of one of these type that failed (I am not saying you supplied these but they look like they are of the same type I think?)

Roger Greening       14/08/2018

http://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/3850-reproduction-herald-driveshafts/

Hi Roger,
Thank you very much for informing us of this, we have not had any other comments as yet. I will forward your email to the supplier and let you know what they say.
Regards, Paul.
 
Hi Roger,
The initial feedback from our supplier is that they have not seen this problem previously. They are going to examine a couple of shafts in their workshops to assess how securely the yoke is attached to the shaft.
I will let you know.
Regards, Paul.

So  I will wait for their findings, perhaps I was unlucky and was supplied the only faulty 2 !

Roger

 

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My first thought is that the unnamed suppliers supplier is not the manufacturer.

One wonders how long the chain is, who actually commissioned the manufacture (one of the usual UK suspects or maybe Bastuck?) and where they are actually made.

Also whether anyone in the chain does any QC........ though I reckon I might know the answer to that........

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Hello All

                I thought I would post this here from TSSC forum as the debate is going on both forums

5 hours ago, rlubikey said:

Hi Roger. My broken shaft has a small shoulder - approx. 0.5mm - and then the splines which have peaks *almost* the same as the main shaft diameter. There are 24 splines. The main section of shaft is 26.5mm diameter, spline peaks 26.3mm and neck 25.6mm. I would estimate the splines are about 1mm deep (peak to valley). Any more details, just ask.

Hello Richard

                       Well that definetly makes them a different make!

Mine measure 26.5mm main shaft but OE one is still unmachined there are 25 splines on new one and 24 on OE one

New spline diameter 28.5 mm OE one 26.3mm

The recess in front of the splines on new one is 25.3mm dia

So we can probably assume yours were made to a good standard and mine were made in the chocolate factory!

I am thinking of going to Manners or Fitchets and looking at them before buying

Roger

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Hello All

               I rang Fitchetts today and he said their shafts are made in the UK.(It was printed on the box) and he says he does not buy from China!

So I had a run over to have a look and they appear much better than my chocolate factory ones!

So I bought 2 @ £69.50 each inc VAT (they are cheaper than the chocolate factory ones!)

Now at home I have had a good look at them and the splines look as though they have been rolled or pressed onto the shaft and the yoke machined faces are blued which suggests they have been heat shrunk on and you can see the heat treatment colours on the shaft.

The splines also engage into the yoke by an extra 0.125”

So over all they look much better and fit for purpose.

I have stripped the other old one down and the yoke just tapped off after removing the roll pin and you could see the freting on the splines!

So it was a disaster waiting to happen

Roger

ps the drive flange put up a good fight again! I hope this pair see me out? I will give the original supplier next week then chase for my money back saying they were not fit for purpose and dangerous and perhaps mention small claim court?

pps I have just noticed the old ones have 2 splines missing in the yoke!!!! so only 23 effective splines!!!

DSC07933.JPG

DSC07936.JPG

DSC07937.JPG

DSC07943.JPG

Edited by rogerguzzi
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Hello All

              Yes a roll pin but I suspect Triumph fitted a solid pin as belt and braces! and one of the chocolate factory ones did 5000 miles(which for a lot would be several years!)

To me they look streets better but time will tell but man at Fitchetts said non have come loose.

So I am happy again but P****d off that I had to go to all this trouble.

Roger

ps they are never going to be like moderns and do 200k miles with no problems(Dream on!)

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10 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Is it an optical illusion or are the yokes on the new ones thicker/deeper that the cheap one and OE ones? if so may help with cup retention and rotation which I'm always struggling with.

Alan

 

Hello Alan

                   Maybe just a touch I have a spare one you can look at and compare as I will not be fitted until the winter (just bought 2 as seemed a good idea as compared to one old Triumph one and one new one!?)

But to my eye they look good ok it has a roll pin but I think we are getting hung up about this as most Triumph ones never came loose they chewed the shaft or snapped before the yoke came loose!

Plus most people will not give them a hard life unlike the spotty youth we all were!(what is the average mileage for a classic car per year? 500,1000,2000 or nutters like me 5000+)and at low speed and no strain!

Roger

ps TSSC run in the planing

 

 

DSC07949.JPG

Edited by rogerguzzi
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Hello All

              I just had another look at the photo of the one that failed in the back of beyond to the herald pair and to me it looks the same type as I have had fail you can see the splines are bigger!

I hope their spares are not chocolate factory ones!

Roger

Edited by rogerguzzi
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Hello All

               I am going to see what the suppliers say now I have 2 of them that have failed!

The second one came off with a gentle tap(after the roll pin was removed)not tight

Roger

ps I know were I went wrong I should have waited for the rust to weld them ?????

DSC07951.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello All

                This is the latest offer I had said yes to the refund but it was not so much about the money but the safety aspect!

Hi Roger,
We have now had an update from the supplier.
They have examined two shafts in their workshop and for both, the yokes were firmly attached to the shaft. They agree that the pinning could be more substantial and will discuss this with their supplier. Furthermore, we and our supplier have had no other notifications of similar problems from our customers.
We are not aware of any other suppliers for this part, so we cannot supply anything different.
The shafts are now out of the 12 month warranty period, but in this instance we would be happy to provide a refund which would be £69.50 + VAT per shaft, which is £166.80.
 
If this is acceptable, please could you let me know and also how your would like us to make the refund.
 
Regards, Paul.
 
They are sending the refund but have asked were I purchased the new ones as they are always on the look out for better products!
 
What do you think I should do about this?
 
Roger

 

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5 hours ago, JohnD said:

Your replacements from Fitchetts?

Why not tell the other supplier?  

John

Hello John

                   I must admit I can not see a problem with that as I think they supply other dealers but I think I will phone Fitchetts and ask first !

Roger

ps I showed the faulty one to Fitchetts and I suppose them offering and me accepting a refund in good will they could there is no admission of fault?

 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnD said:

I'm no lawyer, Roger!   And as they have taken them back, no evidence, either,!

 

Hello John

                  Right on first count wrong on second I still have them both! (thought about refitting the yokes and Fleabay!((Joke))

Roger

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9 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Has anyone thought about better pins and welding? Not that I know what I'm talking about metallurgy wise.

Alan

Hello Alan

                  The way I see it the pin is only a safety device the splines  do the driving and a pin would soon snap or wear  through if splines failed unlike tr6 drive shafts that were designed to slide (not yoke)  

Roger

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Hello All

              A bit more information I spoke to Fitchetts to check it was ok to tell the other supplier were I purchased them and he said that was ok and thanked me!

But the interesting bit he said they are made in Birmingham! that gives me more confidence than China or India (escaped Brummie)

Roger

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8 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

Of course they could be made in Birmingham by Chinese or Indians :ninja:

Hello Alan

                    You are correct of course but it not so far to go to push them were the sun does not shine! (yoke end first?)

Roger

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  • 2 months later...
On 8/19/2018 at 1:28 PM, rogerguzzi said:

Hello All

              I just had another look at the photo of the one that failed in the back of beyond to the herald pair and to me it looks the same type as I have had fail you can see the splines are bigger!

I hope their spares are not chocolate factory ones!

Roger

Sorry to bump an old thread...

One of our spares was an OE one, this was fitted after the first failure. The other spare was from Canley's and is the better type as sold to you by Fitchett's. The other driveshaft started squeaking in Kemerovo, Russia so about 5,000 miles after the other failed. We ignored it, not a smart decision, but it held, somehow.

So the squeak was clearly the remaining driveshaft. It came off this weekend as part of a fix everything weekend. It's ready to go (about 5mm of play in it now!), only the roll pin is holding it and it scares me.

I ordered them February 2017 from the same supplier as @rogerguzzi judging by the emails he shared with us. A refund does not seem to be forthcoming, I have been asked to send the driveshafts off so their supplier can examine them (fair enough I guess). But it feels like we're doing the R&D for them, and we've wasted some decent RHP bearings in the process. I will of course oblige, as something needs to be done before a serious accident happens. When the other failed, the suspension partially collapsed and we skidded to a halt. If it happened on a fast road, I don't see how you could control the car.

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Yes, the used OE one has now done 9,000 miles without incident, this is the one fitted in Tajikistan.

The shaft we fitted this weekend was the other new spare supplied by Canley's, time will tell on that one as it's only done one test drive so far.

So the surviving "Chocolate factory" shaft managed 17,000 miles but really the last 5,000 miles have been on borrowed time and crossed fingers. I'm not doing that again.

The problem with all this is, we might be the only swing axle car that has managed to cover 17,000 miles+ in a single year... 

FWIW, I'm certain I've read something by Bill Davies a few years ago that mentioned loose yokes. But I can't find the thread now (on the new and "improved" CT forum).

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