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PeterC

Messages of support fro Darren TR5tar

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Wow - just wow. If that isn't defamation of character then I don't know what is. A serious error of judgement by the BoD which could cost the TRR dearly. Probably best not reprinted here.

Basically they have stated just their own side of the debacle naming names and making accusations and without addressing the legitimate concerns which have been raised about the unfairness of the process. Obviously this was sent to print before the recent agreement on reinstatement pending independent review so has been overtaken by events - but it means that those members of the club who do not read the forums will get a very one-sided picture.

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14 hours ago, PaulAA said:

Not so many current TRR members here, Niall.  Would it be possible to post a scan?

Sorry Paul my computer skills don’t stretch that far maybe someone else can.

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Ready the article this morning one sided does not cover it.

Openly called it a bloody disgrace and called the BoD unfit to manage any club.

Perhaps it's my turn for a nice e-mail from Tucker.

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Thought long and hard about sharing the article. 

I even iPhone screen shots of the article to post. 

But I have decided against it on the basis it “publishes” on the web forever Darren’s name in association with the TRR board of director opinion and in my view unbalanced statement. 

I do not want to do that to Darren. 

If timeframes were so tight, it would have been better to have a half page pulled and left blank. 

H

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On 9/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, DeTRacted said:

but it means that those 99%  members of the club who do not read the forums will get a very one-sided picture.

(Edited for Clarity)

 

Do you really think this was accidental?

The BoD are fiercely against interwebs forums which they openly and very publicly despise as hotbeds of reactionary dissent.

It had (has) members who proudly state their total disregard for the internet and their total non engagement with it. Last time the Forumites went up against the BoD, we had some loudly proclaiming their pride in never owning, nor ever intending to own a computer.

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It not just the TRR.    When the TSSC website and message board went digits-up a few years ago, and the Club showed no inclination to reinstate it, I went to an AGM to ask for progress.    The same attitudes were clear from the floor of the meeting, although the board was less obvious in its Luddism.

So different from our own dear board!    Transferred from the original, outdated platform in ?ten days, or less,  under the guidance of our esteemed webmaster!

JOhn

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What am I missing? What makes it worth the grief to be a director, is it just the meglomania, or is there something more tangible?

 

Alan

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John

It is an interesting comparison.  I'm still a fresher at Sideways, but much enjoying the benefits of a peer-managed forum, where there is no shadow of a Senior Management whose views must, ultimately, prevail.  No glory laps around Silverstone for the privileged few.

Looking at how single-interest groups organise themselves increasingly through social media, communicating events and gatherings at short notice, it is evident that this is the future.  They are not lumbered with expensive headquarters and administrative staff and their interest is the activity that brings them together, not the glory and power of a directorship, or pretending to be a Squadron Leader for some Home Counties group of 30mph paraders.

I'm sure there are some things that the old single-marque clubs still do exceedingly well (um... ), but I'm certain that they have a definite and limited shelf life.  No matter how they dress themselves up, they are not going to attract serious attention from fresh generations, who find more energy and immediacy elsewhere.  I'm sure that a simple review of membership demographics will underline this.

Paul

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Shadowy Dark Overlord at your service...

I'm in the UK for 2 days in 4 weeks time, where do I collect my Silverstone passes?

;-)

Craig

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11 hours ago, PaulAA said:

John

It is an interesting comparison.  I'm still a fresher at Sideways, but much enjoying the benefits of a peer-managed forum, where there is no shadow of a Senior Management whose views must, ultimately, prevail.  No glory laps around Silverstone for the privileged few.

Looking at how single-interest groups organise themselves increasingly through social media, communicating events and gatherings at short notice, it is evident that this is the future.  They are not lumbered with expensive headquarters and administrative staff and their interest is the activity that brings them together, not the glory and power of a directorship, or pretending to be a Squadron Leader for some Home Counties group of 30mph paraders.

I'm sure there are some things that the old single-marque clubs still do exceedingly well (um... ), but I'm certain that they have a definite and limited shelf life.  No matter how they dress themselves up, they are not going to attract serious attention from fresh generations, who find more energy and immediacy elsewhere.  I'm sure that a simple review of membership demographics will underline this.

Paul

 

 

What he said.

many of the current boards are the last hang ons from the days when Triumphs were still daily drivers and meets were in club car parks on a Thursday night.. They’ve now reached the dizzy heights as club overlords holding club meets in beer tents just as the cars have changed their ownership profile.

Many of the ‘great and good’ in the clubs complain bitterly about the rapidly rising price if the cars that are effectively shifting out anyone but the fairly well off. This new ownership profile are collectors acd no interested in a drunken  meeting in a beer tent in a cow show ground. They e simply missed the boat that the cars have become lifestyle accirrsories got people who want the ‘classic car experience”.

look at the shindig the Triumph club in the states organises compared to the cowshed get-togethers that are still the norm in Triumph-land here.

curiously, while the members slum it in cowsheds with salmonella burgers, , look at the extravagant bow tie wining and dining the leaderships indulge in when they get together.

i get much better value from my small local all make classic car club. No HQs, just a basic landing page on the web and a Facebook page, no empires,  no Directors, a get together in a college or recreation centre car park one Sunday a month then a drive out to a pub for dinner and a drink. Once a year, the members organise a run to the Sun for the more adventurous. 

 

Moving smartly onwards, the big clubs have lost the plot and are trying to be something they are not, the TSSC with its extravant headquarters and museum with some rather ‘interesting’ ownership of assets... hello, Gaydon does it better. And then the TRR got dazzled by the financial opportunities being an insurance brokers could bring... hello, it’s a buyers market.

The last remaining big clubs all suffer from the sane problem, Directors, many of them retired businessmen,  playing at businessmen with club members funds - while hiding behind non discloure agreements and confidentiality clauses to make sure the members are kept in the dark.

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Serious thread drift, but I think the internet forum groups that are not "clubs" are almost going full circle. Look at Retro Rides, started as an internet forum, yet last year they hired Goodwood for a weekend. Not a small financial undertaking. 

The traditional clubs do have a very strong following, and on here I think many/most are members of at least one club where they pay an annual membership and get a magazine. And most will probably remain so. Proper clubs do have some benefits, be it insurance schemes, entry to some events or whatever. Likewise, the social media car groups seem to have a few stalwarts (often old farts like me or similar, who have a background in clubs) and the rest made up of people who often have zero idea about much at all (I am thinking of a  Ford facebook group, I am genuinely scared that some of those people have cars on the road that they have bolted together)

There is a place for both. Yes, there is often massive inertia with people at the top. But those people really believe they are doing the right thing. Trouble is, getting younger people in is VERY difficult, most are shonky and don't have the commitment to carry stuff though. Those that are genuine should be treasured.

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12 hours ago, AB|W said:

What makes it worth the grief to be a director, is it just the meglomania, or is there something more tangible?

I think it depends who you are.  There does appear to be some megalomania in this case, but I doubt all members of the board are afflicted equally and some may even have the best interests of the club at heart.  Pity they seem to be outnumbered.

 

9 minutes ago, Scooter said:

but I'm certain that they have a definite and limited shelf life.  No matter how they dress themselves up, they are not going to attract serious attention from fresh generations, who find more energy and immediacy elsewhere.  I'm sure that a simple review of membership demographics will underline this.

This....... the membership crash may be coming quite soon as the "majority" flat-earth old buffers fall off their perches or get carted off to nursing homes.

 

17 minutes ago, Scooter said:

i get much better value from my small local all make classic car club.

Me too.... in a way.  The Woolbridge MC is actually a very long-standing club which organises motor sport events at all levels (national hillclimbs down to 12 car rallies and production car trials).  It does have an (unpaid) board made up of sane and sensible people who are all long standing members and motorsport enthusiasts.  Rnning costs are well controlled and membership fees very reasonable.  This is what a club should be IMO.  They have a different problem.  They have a bit of a hole in the middle of their membership demographic which makes recruiting new "management" hard.

Nick

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12 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

Serious thread drift, but I think the internet forum groups that are not "clubs" are almost going full circle. Look at Retro Rides, started as an internet forum, yet last year they hired Goodwood for a weekend. Not a small financial undertaking. 

Retrorides is an interesting phenomenon.  Basically run by one man (AFAIK) although I think there must be a small network of them who chip in to organise the events.  The events have been running a while but do seem to be getting bigger.  He lives close to me and is often at the Haynes breakfast meet if his posts and pics are any guide, though I've yet to meet him in person.

Nick

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I've not been, but I've corresponded with US friends in Triumph about their "shindigs".     It's a different ballgame, because of US geography and social factors.    

Few jobs in the US come with more than two weeks paid holiday a year, and the distance that must be travelled to even a State event are such that o to attend is not a weekend event, as in the UK.      Thus, to attract attendees, the organisers make them week-longish, base them on conference hotels, and include as many family-friendly components as possible, not just static displays and auto-jumbles, which used to be the extent of 'International' organisers' imagination. 

But I agree with your analysis of the way that increasing value of classics is changing the attitude of owners to events.    Not all bad,  who wants to meet in a cowshed?   But the way that the TSSC has responded to the popularity of Classic Le Mans by theTertre Rouge project has matched the aspirations of its' members - and many others! - and the "Triumfest" change to the International format has been popular.      In contrast, and perhaps because their cars are worth more, the TRR has arranged links with hotel-offering travel agents.  Different markets.

John

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Fair points zetecspit for the marques that carried on, but there is a finite cut off date for Triumphs that simply forces the cars into a different market. 

When your car hits fifty, its a 'proper' classic and it will start attracting the collectors and investors. Even a decent Spitfire is a £10k investment now, with GT6's heading north of £20k along with Vitesse convertibles. And TR's? They prices are getting eye-watering, and driving up the values of the previously cheap Michellotti penned smaller Triumphs. They won't get any cheaper, they ain't making any more.

None of the big Triumph clubs have come up with any way of dealing with this issue. The people who bought their Triumphs when they were cheap are now old and dying off, the people buying in two Triumphs now tend to be much younger and better off, and don't want the archaic and dusty club scenic they offer - complete with the old boys and their mates closed shop running things.

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40 minutes ago, zetecspit said:

Trouble is, getting younger people in is VERY difficult, most are shonky and don't have the commitment to carry stuff though. Those that are genuine should be treasured.

Although I don't fully agree with your observation on young people, this is the full circle that takes the thread back to Darren.  He's the very sort of young(ish) person that could be the future of the TRR - active, interested, popular with his fellow members and prepared to roll up his sleeves and clear out the dead wood and their questionable legacy.

But it seems that the TRR is focused on an altogether different direction.

Paul

Edited by PaulAA

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3 minutes ago, PaulAA said:

Although I don't fully agree with your observation on young people, this is the full circle that takes the thread back to Darren.  He's the very sort of young(ish) person that could be the future of the TRR - active, interested, popular with his fellow members and prepared to roll up his sleeves and clear out the dead wood and their questionable legacy.

But it seems that the TRR is focused on an altogether different direction.

Paul

See my earlier point.... the TRR has by far the oldest demographic of all the Triumph clubs. It was 65 a decade ago, I doubt it’s got younger.

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32 minutes ago, JohnD said:

I've not been, but I've corresponded with US friends in Triumph about their "shindigs".     It's a different ballgame, because of US geography and social factors.    

Few jobs in the US come with more than two weeks paid holiday a year, and the distance that must be travelled to even a State event are such that o to attend is not a weekend event, as in the UK.      Thus, to attract attendees, the organisers make them week-longish, base them on conference hotels, and include as many family-friendly components as possible, not just static displays and auto-jumbles, which used to be the extent of 'International' organisers' imagination. 

But I agree with your analysis of the way that increasing value of classics is changing the attitude of owners to events.    Not all bad,  who wants to meet in a cowshed?   But the way that the TSSC has responded to the popularity of Classic Le Mans by theTertre Rouge project has matched the aspirations of its' members - and many others! - and the "Triumfest" change to the International format has been popular.      In contrast, and perhaps because their cars are worth more, the TRR has arranged links with hotel-offering travel agents.  Different markets.

John

You have to get the partners on board. Not the dyed in the wool ones, the ones indulging your expensive past time.

stafford was two days in a hotel, (limited choice, so expensive) with little locally to attract my wife’s interest. An expensive long weekend and a cold and bored wife not happy to be in a cow shed.

compare that with my other jolly, the Classic Off Road Show in Telford. When Wright moved it from the cowsheds in Malvern to the conference centre in Telford, everyone said he was mad. 

But, a large, comfortable conference acd exhibition centre, lots of hotels, and a huge shopping centre within walking distance, and of course, it’s a tourist hotspots. No problem getting her to go to that one, I go look at the bikes, she goes shopping. The shows grown like gang busters and is now a major international draw. It’s very much in the Triumphest USA model. In the UK too, Time and money are in short supply, you have to give the attendees maximum value fir money.

Too many clubs look at their events through the wrong end of their retired directors telescope.

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I've been staying out of this, but watching with interest. But now we've drifted into more open territory....

I'm in my 40s, so probably considered at the "younger" end of Triumph ownership. I've bored many of my colleagues half to death with tales of our Triumph antics (RBRR, 10CR etc.).... one day I took one of my 20-something colleagues out for a run at lunchtime in the Spitfire. Afterwards he said "I get it now". Although he's not at a stage in his life where he can afford or accommodate a classic car in his life at least he understands it now. The more young people we expose to classic cars the better chance we have of keeping our hobby going. In that regard my local multi-marque car club (Airedale and Pennine MCC) does far more to give younger people exposure to our cars than the larger national single marque clubs.

BUT we have to accept that our hobby also has a limited shelf life. As perspectives change on things like the environment eventually fuel for our cars will be expensive and the social acceptability of driving them 2000+ miles "just for fun" will be questioned (rightly or wrongly)

Enjoy it while you can!

 

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Yes, your probably right Yorkshire-spam, I can see in the not too far future a serious tightening up of the rules fur ‘classic cars’ . Historically accurate, historically ‘significant’, (that’s to drive all the family saloons out): period only modifications, limited, (1000 miles per annum) Milage. Everything else, at best ‘young timers’ With a lower tax band. Let’s not forget, the current definition w as on,y meant to cover things like old Jags acd Rollers, it was a surprise to the DoT so many ‘common’ cars had survived.

theres also the increasing technical issues we will face as fuel becomes less amenable to older cars. If E10 becomes the norm, it’s going to really drive a lot of older cars off the road.

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23 minutes ago, yorkshire_spam said:

The more young people we expose to classic cars the better chance we have of keeping our hobby going

 

Spot on.  The TR6 is practically unknown here and I'm happy to take interested youngster for a blast and see their reaction, particularly if their motoring experience is confined to souped-up youngtimers.  My 16 year-old son sees the TR6 as his rightful inheritance and is delighted to drive it (on private roads) whenever he can.  But at his age, I was already fiddling with mower engines and concocting stupidly dangerous experiments.  I don't see much of that in his generation.

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