Nick Jones Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I forgotten you had one of these fail Roger. I'd be taking it up with the supplier in the strongest terms. IMO these are unfit for purpose even actively dangerous with the potential for causing serious injury or death. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Nick Jones said: I forgotten you had one of these fail Roger. I'd be taking it up with the supplier in the strongest terms. IMO these are unfit for purpose even actively dangerous with the potential for causing serious injury or death. Nick Hello Nick You are right but I feel it will be like banging my head against a brick wall! Yes I may get my money back but they will keep selling this CRAP (bad language again but it does make me mad) because there is nothing else! Plus we are all guilty up to a point as we want cheapish spares and most cars do no mileage so it is not problem! Just my opinion ! Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulAA Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 (edited) Hi Roger I notice an older post of yours on tssc responding to a question about identifying the symptoms of approaching failure. You described the 'click' and now you have me worried: all UJs newly replaced on a TR6 and I still hear the 'click' when I pull away. Apologies, John, for the thread drift. The boys are making fabulous progress! And google will have been their friend with the Russian-speaking mechanic. What a stupid question... Paul Edited August 13, 2018 by PaulAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 I understand the frustration, but if the problems are not fed back to the suppliers, there really is no chance of them being corrected. I think that this lack of feedback/complaint is a major factor in the the persistently high levels of crap parts. Often this is because people have bought parts for long running restorations and don't discover the problem until the perceived warranty period is past. Unfortunately we seem to arrived at a point where, for some parts, the cheap, shoddy crap has pushed the worthwhile ones out of existence. For critical, safety related parts like these driveshafts, it really can't be allowed to continue. Sad thing is, with better tolerance control of the splines and a proper pin (really minimal extra cost), they may well be fine (or they may be made of poorly hardened cheese and snap off at the other end/wear out prematurely. I note that Classic Driving Developments do uprated ones. Really quite expensive though....... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprint95m Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 On the Triumph Cars DVD there is an insightful interview with the Rimmer brothers. There they explain the difficulties of commissioning remanufactured parts within their business, in an ideal world everything would be made to the highest specification possible but this is simply not viable because a majority(?) of their customers won't pay. Afterall a lot of restored cars are simply taken to shows, therefore the longevity or otherwise of components is not as important as the price (of said components) to owners. Yes Nick, as you said, feedback is critical to remanufacturers. In a utopian world there would be enough discerning customers willing to pay for high quality. Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 11, 2018 Author Share Posted August 11, 2018 Wasn't what happened this time, but the OE half shafts have a stress raising design fault at t'other end. So even the best modern copies are prone to failure. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 20 hours ago, JohnD said: Wasn't what happened this time, but the OE half shafts have a stress raising design fault at t'other end. So even the best modern copies are prone to failure. John. This is true, though it's probably fair to say that that OE ones fail only after very long service or impact damage. The CDD uprated ones claim to have addressed the issue by using a rounded end keyway rather than the OE square end....... Should certainly help if done right. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Relevant TSSC forum thread relating to a different failure mode http://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/3821-sheared-halfshaft-scary/ CDD info on their "uprated" shafts (via TSSC) and link to CDD website, which is light on technical information, but does show prices.......... best sit down first! However, cheaper than demolishing your car and whatever damage to occupants and whomever else is unlucky enough to be in the way. http://www.classicdrivingdevelopment.co.uk/pdf/CDD Price List, Feb 16 all prod Net and Gross.pdf (Prices from 2016?) Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Hello Nick Now I am not sure which is worse old Triumph stressed driveshafts that may or may not snap! or repro ones that yoke comes loose and is only held on by a ROLLPIN! The ones at £1000 start to look more apealing! (the thought of one going when we were going or coming down some of the Pyrenees passes make the blood run cold)I know I have to go some time but I do not want to rush the day on!(and it is only money!) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 12, 2018 Author Share Posted August 12, 2018 The picture Nick included shows clearly the acutely reduced diameter at the hub, whiowch casues the stress and breakage. Cant' see if there is any radiusing, or other attempt to reduce that, or know if it's possible while retaining the standard drive hub. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 2 hours ago, JohnD said: The picture Nick included shows clearly the acutely reduced diameter at the hub, which causes the stress and breakage. Cant' see if there is any radiusing, or other attempt to reduce that, or know if it's possible while retaining the standard drive hub. John Eh? The diameter at the outer end has to reduce to provide the taper to match it to the standard hub - and this taper provides the majority of the fit strength and transmits most of the torque. The taper isn't really the problem. The problem historically is the keyway which extends inboard to the edge of the hub and is a straight, open slot with sharp edges and corners. On the uprated version pictured (though not very clearly), the slot appears shorter (and thus not extending into the potential flex-zone at the inner edge of the hub and is cut as a closed slot with rounded ends. Both factors which should reduce it's potential to act as a stress raiser. It's not stated, but also possible that the shaft is not surface hardened. It doesn't need to be as the roller bearing runs on a hardened sleeve, not directly on the shaft itself. This may also help the toughness of the shaft. Provided the spline fit and pinning arrangement at the inner end is done correctly, I reckon these are a substantial improvement over OE /OE repro, albeit at about 5x the price. Also not clear whether they are offered in long and short versions...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 A quick read and a check on the price list seems to imply that they include new inner hubs to take the larger bearings. So as they must also include the good freelander UJ and all the correct size bearings, according to Rimmers a repro side would be about £275, so £550 the pair, so at £830 a pair for the CCD ones doesn't look too bad value, if they really are good! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, oldtuckunder said: A quick read and a check on the price list seems to imply that they include new inner hubs to take the larger bearings. So as they must also include the good freelander UJ and all the correct size bearings, according to Rimmers a repro side would be about £275, so £550 the pair, so at £830 a pair for the CCD ones doesn't look too bad value, if they really are good! Alan Hello All Shall I be the guinea pig? its only money! and I am getting a bit P****ed off with taking it all apart etc Plus I am a sucker for new shinney parts! Better not tell the Memsihab! I think these old cars could be the death of me(still worse ways to go?) Roger ps now do I fit the lower ratio differetial at the same time or look for another 3.65 one?(I have put all new bearings in it!) It took me a few hours to get the new computer(this one)to talk to the microsquirt!!!!!! I got there in the end but do not ask how(smoke and mirrors) pps I am lead to believe the uj,s are all made in somewhere foreign ? now so we need NOS? Edited August 12, 2018 by rogerguzzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 It's only money....... unless the boss finds out! I'd stick with the 3.63. The 1500 makes torque and torque likes tall gearing. Plus you do long distance, so a relaxed cruise is important. UJs..... the same basic dimensions are available in many forms, even from the same manufacturer, for different purposes. High torque, low speed; low speed, high torque; with grease nipples (pointless IMO, you never get grease to all 4 points); without grease nipples and so on. Buy Hardy Spicer or GKN and buy the ones listed for Landrover Freelander (listed by Landrover or the UJ maker, not the eBay seller!) and you've done the best you can. on the updated ones they could have chosen to use the next size up (as used on TR and saloon driveshafts, Stag propshafts etc) but they don't seem to have done this. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Hi Roger If we are going to test these, we really need something that is going to put some real torque through them, like a Vitesse or GT6, so just to get this off the ground, you buy them and I'll volunteer to test them Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, oldtuckunder said: Hi Roger If we are going to test these, we really need something that is going to put some real torque through them, like a Vitesse or GT6, so just to get this off the ground, you buy them and I'll volunteer to test them Alan Hello Alan Are you going to do that rally then? Hello Nick I thought that,s what you would say! and after I have fitted new bearings etc! I will have to look for a 3.63 now (mine is worn were the stub axles go into the sun or is it planet gears)all new bearings and seals 2 years ago(15,000 miles!) Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, rogerguzzi said: Hello Alan Are you going to do that rally then? Nah, I gave her a road trip to Shelsley and back at the weekend, (wasn't happy about the rain on the way back, may be something to do with not having been road driven in the rain for 40 years!) and judging by what came loose etc on a 60 mile round trip, I think I have to accept that I built her for the 100M not the Marathon! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkshire_spam Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Nick Jones said: UJs..... the same basic dimensions are available in many forms, even from the same manufacturer, for different purposes. High torque, low speed; low speed, high torque; with grease nipples (pointless IMO, you never get grease to all 4 points); without grease nipples and so on. Buy Hardy Spicer or GKN and buy the ones listed for Landrover Freelander (listed by Landrover or the UJ maker, not the eBay seller!) and you've done the best you can. TVF100000 is the freelander part number. I use LR direct for parts, as they allow you to select price/make for parts (I wouldn't touch Britpart with a barge pole) https://www.lrdirect.com/TVF100000-Universal-Joint/?keep_https=yes There's a price difference for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Hello All I have just frightened the S***t out of myself ! I thought I would try and press the ROLL PIN out of the Kn****D shaft Well to be honest I think I could have pushed it out by hand! and this is how it came out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The photos show the grim picture? Roger ps it is 6mm I am thinking I will jack the car up tomorrow and see if I can push the other one out and fit a high tensile bolt for now for peace of mind! Those expensive ones are looking good value now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 How tight was it on the splines? The OE ones are a serious press fit......... because they need to be. The people making these don't know what they are doing - which is scary Genuine "Nuns and kittens will die" (along with anyone else who gets in the way) situation. Do the TSSC sell these - because if they do I think a formal approach should be made..... I also think you need to raise a safety concern with your supplier - with the comment that "no, you definitely don't want a like for like replacement"! Those pics need to go on all the Triumph forums so people are aware. If 6mm bolt is a rattling good fit...... try a 1/4" one. But the bottom line is that if the splines are not a properly tight fit in the first place whatever is put in their will eventually fail - although most things will do better than a roll-pin. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, Nick Jones said: How tight was it on the splines? The OE ones are a serious press fit......... because they need to be. The people making these don't know what they are doing - which is scary Genuine "Nuns and kittens will die" (along with anyone else who gets in the way) situation. Do the TSSC sell these - because if they do I think a formal approach should be made..... I also think you need to raise a safety concern with your supplier - with the comment that "no, you definitely don't want a like for like replacement"! Those pics need to go on all the Triumph forums so people are aware. If 6mm bolt is a rattling good fit...... try a 1/4" one. But the bottom line is that if the splines are not a properly tight fit in the first place whatever is put in their will eventually fail - although most things will do better than a roll-pin. Nick Hello Nick It is a nice? sliding fit! you can see the fretting on the splines and in the hub! it was a disaster waiting to happen? I have posted them on the TSSC forum http://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/3531-drive-shafts/ I will send the photos to the supplier but unfortunatly I bought them last July(I should have done it earlier!) just to make them aware on the risks they present and risk of prosecution if someone gets really hurt or killed? Roger Ps those hair pin bends we were going around and a lot without any safety rails of any sort and a nice big drops ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 This isn't (just) about warranty - it's public safety. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 13 hours ago, Nick Jones said: This isn't (just) about warranty - it's public safety. Nick Hello Nick You are correct. I have had another look at the shaft this morning and the spline end does not look to clever to me either! what do you think? Would you mind if I pm,d you with a copy of the complaint I am going to prepare and send to the suppliers? I want to state all our concourns but not be Confrontational etc Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 also provides a good question for CDD about how theirs is fitted/secured. Alan Might be interesting to find out from @GT6Steve what he used to do as if I remember correctly I found a thread where he used to get sets manufactured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Hello All I have driven the roll pin out of the other yoke(not very tight) I tried to press one out of and old drive shaft with the hydraulic press with no luck. Looking at the red rust on it I think the other drive shaft may be coming loose as the rust is the same as failed one! I have fitted a 6 mm 8.8 bolt in it for now that has got to be better than a roll pin? Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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