PeterC Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Yes, its ZDDP yet again. I bored and confused fellow TRers when I opened this can of worms, which I've copied over from the TR forum Many oil suppliers have changed the way they describe the concentration of ZDDP, and it makes a huge difference. An oil labelled as "1100 ppm ZDDP" contains much less ZDDP than one labelled as " 1100ppm Zn as ZDDP" Unitl recently all oils were labelled as " ppm Zn as ZDDP". the change has crept in under the radar. Zinc contributes only about 10-15% of the weight of the ZDDP molecule. So a crafty seller who wants to put a bigger ppm number on the label could easily use the mass of the whole ZDDP molecule. There are many different ZDDP molecular species varying in molecular mass from 400 to 2000.In any ZDDP molecule there are 1 Zinc and 2 Phosphorus with respective atomic weights of Zn=65 and P= 30. So if the whole ZDDP molecule weighs around 400, the Zn ( or P) contributes around 60-ish, or about 15%. SO an oil with say 200ppm Zn ( rubbish for our engines) could be labelled as having 1400 ppm ZDPP. That "1400 ppm ZDDP" would be scientifically correct and legal labelling (as far as I know) But it is not the way the level has been expressed in the past which was as ppm Zn. You'd buy the 1400, yes? but not 200 ppm. Beware !! WHAT to DO ? If the label says ZDDP as Zn ( or P) = 1100 to 1400 ppm region we are sure to be OK, and this is conventional labelling. If the label simply says ZDDP = 1100 to 1400 ppm ( or more!) we have no idea what the Zn or P content is, and the oil may be at least 7 times lower in ZDDP than we expect. That is b88ger all antiscuff. I would not buy that oil without supplier's lab (not a sales person) confirming the Zn or P ppm. Apologies for the long-winded explanation - sometimes science does not reduce to commonsense explanations. ===================== Has anyone seen this in a classic car mag or elsewhere? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Nope..... that's a new one on me. I'll be out to read my cans in the morning! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Peter, I thought it was you who explained that it is the Phosphorus content of ZDDP that contributes the wear protection. Presumably it was another marketing decision that used the Zinc, already associated with corrosion protection, to label products rather than Phosphorus, that has connotations with warfare and alchemical chicanery? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 40 minutes ago, JohnD said: Peter,f ro I thought it was you who explained that it is the Phosphorus content of ZDDP that contributes the wear protection. Presumably it was another marketing decision that used the Zinc, already associated with corrosion protection, to label products rather than Phosphorus, that has connotations with warfare and alchemical chicanery? John Hi John, I hadnt thought of that, phosphorous does sound nastier than zinc. Both Zn and P are in ZDDP and in the same proportions ( 2 P to 1 Zn). Its the P that kills cats so modern oils have low ZDDP ( maybe zero). Maybe other Zn compounds are used for other purposes, whch is why the ZDDP content can be described as "ppm Zn as ZDDP" or "ppm P as ZDDP". They are interchangable. IIRC it was the alchemists who found P in pee IIRC. Not what they wanted, but useful. The be extra sure I take a zinc pill every week , but heve so far resisted peeing in the oil filler. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4xdog Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 The oil I use, Peter, is Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil, in SAE30 grade. Here's the Valvoline FAQ, noting it contains 0.14% Zn, 0.12% P (1400 and 1200 ppm, respectively).https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq Yes, reporting total ZDDP content rather than on the basis of Zn is nonstandard from my experience. I haven't seen it, but as my grade hasn't changed for years, I don't look for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, 4xdog said: The oil I use, Peter, is Valvoline VR-1 Racing Oil, in SAE30 grade. Here's the Valvoline FAQ, noting it contains 0.14% Zn, 0.12% P (1400 and 1200 ppm, respectively).https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq Yes, reporting total ZDDP content rather than on the basis of Zn is nonstandard from my experience. I haven't seen it, but as my grade hasn't changed for years, I don't look for it. Hi Don, The thread on anoTR forum ( on Duckhams) reported "ppm ZDDP" labels on several UK classic 20-50 oils and one from NZ. The NZ TRrer, a parts dealer, failed to get a defitive answer from Elf so changed supplier to Penrite. As you know, your Valvoline is fine as it reports Zn and P %. But many non-chemists wont spot the difference. There may be international differencea in labellling laws. UK buyers need to watch out ! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 As normal the issue of ZDDP always gets me to check the levels of my preferred Oil which is Millers Classic Sport High Performance 20w50 Fully Synthetic (Not to be confused with "but a lot of suppliers do!" with High Performance Millers Classic Sport 20w50 which isn't) This info gets harder and harder to find but yes it is still 1050 Zn as ZDDP ppm. However on my trawl for info I came across the following chart for Mobil1 and the high levels of P and Zn surprised me, especially the 0w40 and 15w50, or is this exactly what Peter is complaining about. If not then I may take a closer look at the Mobil1 oils, never having done so before because I assumed they had very little being new oils for newer engines. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted January 7, 2018 Author Share Posted January 7, 2018 Hi Alan, That is the correct way of specifying the level of ZDDP ( ie as ppm Zn or P). But there is only one oil I'd put in the 6, most have too little ZDDP. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 17 hours ago, PeterC said: Hi Alan, That is the correct way of specifying the level of ZDDP ( ie as ppm Zn or P). But there is only one oil I'd put in the 6, most have too little ZDDP. Peter Hello Peter And it is? I am sure we would all like to know as even expensive oil is cheap compared to engine repairs(even if you do it yourself) Plus you have more knowledge than most of us on this matter Roger peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, rogerguzzi said: And it is? Hi Roger, arrange as a well known phrase, hand, can't, in, see, face, front, of Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerguzzi Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 hours ago, oldtuckunder said: Hi Roger, arrange as a well known phrase, hand, can't, in, see, face, front, of Alan Hello Alan and Peter Ok so I am thick! All this way above my head I have been using this for about 3 years as Spitty,s mains are a bit loose and it holds good pressure when hot(Spain 30/40degs) http://www.penriteoil.co.uk/products.php?id_categ=14&id_subcateg=69&id_products=76 What about this one? https://www.carparts4less.co.uk/cp4l/p/accessories-engine-oil/engine-oils/engine-oil/10w60-engine-oil/?521772131&0&cc5_253 Is this the mobil 1 10w50? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mobil-1-RACING-4T-15W50-4L-4-Litre-Motorcycle-Oil-FREE-5L-SCREEN-WASH-TAB/322451905196?epid=1643090292&hash=item4b13a19aac:g:MNgAAOSwA3dYHGIx Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 16 minutes ago, rogerguzzi said: Is this the mobil 1 10w50? It might be, the page I posted was from a 3 page Mobil chart listing about 40 Mobil1 oils, so picking the right Mobil1 from dozens isn't easy and they certainly aint all the same. It a bit like buying breakfast cereal, where the main Box just says "CEREAL" and you have to read the small print ingredients to work out what you are buying. There's Brand Recognition but Mobil take it to extremes. Alan I think I'll stick with Millers FS HP 20w50 only because I haven't broken the engine for two seasons using it, so it seems a bit like tempting fate to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire6 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Hi, The Mobil 1 FS 0W40 is what I run in my TR5 (CP) engine powered Triumph. Not that it's running at the moment. I don't care about ZDDP, but thanks for the chart, as the "ZDDP" sames much higher than I expected for a SN oil. Cheers, Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 There's chapter and verse here on this new problem I uncovered with the way ZDDP content is stated. http://www.tr-register.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/64116-duckhams-is-back/ If you want an oil with 1200-1400 ppm Zn as ZDDP you' have to search data sheets. But "1200 ppm ZDDP" is NOT the same level, its about 7 times lower Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR5tar Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I see "new" Duckhams have made a statement about ZDDP ... https://www.duckhams.com/zddp-what-does-it-all-mean/ What do you reckon to it Peter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulAA Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 Hi Darren Two interesting statements in the Duckham's statement: " The 0.12% maximum concentration of ZDDP has been shown to not only be compliant with the regulations, but also provide perfect amounts of anti-wear protection" ... and: " The presence of Zinc doesn’t necessarily mean that it is ZDDP. Zinc in pure form offers anti-oxidation properties to motor oil but in itself does not contribute to anti–wear protection" Both appear to offer clear information, but can be read in the light of Peter's guidance as disingenuous, at best. Trying to hide uncomfortable facts in broad daylight, perchance? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TR5tar Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I did wonder Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 (edited) I smell rats. Their "1200ppm ZDDP" may only be one seventh of that described in convnetional units: " 170 ppm Zn as ZDDP". It depends upon the molecular weight of the ZDDP, whcih Duchmas do not state, and could even be less. Justifying a lower level because of the absence of lead scavnegers is a new argument, but I want to see data cited before I beleive a word of it. Detergents - not scavengers- do lift off the ZDDP-layer, which Is why high detegent diesel oils use diifernt ZDDP form petrol oils. And we have to contend wth BP Ultimate a high-detergent fuel that might strip the film off rings The poblem Duckhams and others have is they tried to slip in "ppm ZDDP" under our radar. Changing the units is to me a form of deception, but unlikel to fail the Trade Descriptions Act as it is a true figure. If they had issued this statement when selling it correctly labelled as " 170ppm Zn as ZDDP" thay would have been credible. Too little too late. Loss of trust is the killer for me, whatever excuses they try to blind us with. Note that there is no mention of engine tests in the press release. Indeed I have not seen mention of any tests with these low ZDDP classic oils. Wheraswe have decades of experience with correct ZDDP oils. ============ Panrite can be trusted. I had this by email from a fellow TRRer: "As you know I have followed the ZDDP discussions over the years and thought I would get clarification form Penrite who I use. There reply is below. The Zinc is 1610 PPM The Phosphorus is 1440 PPM Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) is the additive that is added to the oil that contains Zinc and Phosphorus Regards Jessi That is how ZDDP has been stated for many decades. I would trust that oil. And avoid all oils described as "ppm ZDDP" ===== I alerted Practical Classics editor to the issue - and got no reply. So we are on our own. Peter Edited March 15, 2018 by PeterC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 Anohter thought, ZDDP gets used up. So an oil with 7 to 10g-fold less will rapidly run out of fresh ZDDP to recify scours in the deposited glassy film. Maybe Duckhams rely upon a classic covering 2k miles between oil changes.....not 10K when our engines were current. Which makes me think they must be adding modern antiscuff compounds - undeclared. Perhaps the ZDDP is merely a gesture.....non-functional.??? Best way to query ZDDP level a get a clear answer would eb to ask if their oil will poison a catalytic convertor ! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtuckunder Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 25 minutes ago, PeterC said: Best way to query ZDDP level a get a clear answer would eb to ask if their oil will poison a catalytic convertor ! Duckhams answer this in their text The 0.12% maximum concentration of ZDDP has been shown to not only be compliant with the regulations, but also provide perfect amounts of anti-wear protection whilst also being at a safe enough level for catalytic converters. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterC Posted March 15, 2018 Author Share Posted March 15, 2018 16 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said: Duckhams answer this in their text The 0.12% maximum concentration of ZDDP has been shown to not only be compliant with the regulations, but also provide perfect amounts of anti-wear protection whilst also being at a safe enough level for catalytic converters. Alan I should have said when querying other classic oils . If they answer 'its safe for cats' then it doesnt have enough. Low ZDDP is barge-pole territory for me. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 As Penrite furnished me with the answer above, quoted by PeterC, immediately without any fudging......I will stay with them. Trust is everything. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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