Jump to content
oldtuckunder

Trigger Wheel Mounting Vitesse

Recommended Posts

I have a clue!   First, in Another Place, I've had a reply from a Ford technician of enormous expreience, who says that EDIS units never fail, confirming my impression, but not allowing my initial diagnosis.  Another suggested reversing the connections on the sensor - and I have a further clue

See the first pic above - sensor and trigger wheel on the lathe.     The missing tooth part of the wave is clearly seen to slope downwards, left to right.

Then the second, from cranking with the sensor back on the car.  The missing tooth section slopes UPwards, left to right.    

I'm uncertain, but would reversing the connections on the sensor could do that?

I'll re-reverse them asap and report.  I've given back the Picoscope, so won't be able to see which way the gap goes.  Just have to see if the EDIS awakes!

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, TARA!!!   I reverse the connections to the crank sensor, and all the test diodes I have on the spark plugs light up as I crank it!

We have lift off!   No actual start as yet, but it's all going that way.  Who would have thought it - a 'shop-bought' wiring loom gets the connection the wrong way round!  I can't go back to the seller now - I've had it on the shelf for years, and he's not in business any more  (wonder why??)

But now, how can I put them back the right way?     Don't want to cut'n' splice,but may have to.     The wires go into a dedicated connector at both ends.  Clearly, the guy who built the new loom put new wires in, so it's possible. 

My crankshaft sensor connector looks like this.   The little white insert pulls out, but I can't see how to unlock the terminals inside

5aaaa781a9e4b_FordCrankshaftsensorconnector.jpg.dfce2c88e1b6c0a650a01a0c57386a80.jpg

And the EDIS connector like this.    This pics shows the terminal pins that go in it.  What the pic doesn't show is another plastic insert pushed in from this side on the connector, but I can't see how to release the terminal pins.

5aaaa7c93612c_EDISconnectorterminals.jpg.fb287b52aa51c21a1503b5245606653d.jpg

 

Any ideas?    Cut, cross and resolder would be quick and dirty!

John

PS Forget it - I've gone Quick & Dirty!    Cut, soldered, shrink-wrapped and bound with copper tape as the old shielding had to be cut back.  Recovered in split conduit and bound with insulating tape and its better than new!  No, to get it to start, then Megajolted.  Progress!  J.

Edited by JohnD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello John

                   They usually have a tag that springs in to place with a very very thin blade you can push it back down and pull the pin out from the back(cable end)

Look on this site to see what i mean

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/43/category/7#gallery-4

Or if you know what pins they are just get new one(may have to buy the plug or socket)

Roger

ps   Edis plug is the same.

Edited by rogerguzzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad your getting somewhere John, there is hope for me!

Sorry I didn't post what I was going to post last week, but being in the absolute novice category it felt a bit uppity to ask if you were using the same sensor loom when testing on the lathe to when testing on the car, wish I had now!

My sensor connector came in bits, I have to wire it, so if a picture of the bits would help let me know and i'll take and post it.

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alan,

As I haven't assembled mine, just bought it, and found it was WRONG - Grrrrrrrrrrrr! - So, I'm not your guru.  Roger's pic may help.

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Alan,

As I haven't assembled mine, just bought it, and found it was WRONG - Grrrrrrrrrrrr! - So, I'm not your guru.  Roger's pic may help.

John

Hello All

               I have made a VR sensor bracket (A bit OTT!) Still it looks nice!

And made a nice Woodruff key but I can not find the right bolts for the camshaft sprocket!

Roger

 

DSC06716.JPG

DSC06718.JPG

DSC06719.JPG

DSC06714.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Roger

As your sensor looks like the identical ford one to mine with the angled head, do you know which way around the wires connect to it? Just that as I have to wire mine, and seeing the problem John had, given a 50:50 chance at the moment I'm likely to get it wrong!

Alan

PS I have a tin of bolts here from a stripped 1500 engine, should be some of those cam sprocket bolts in there, if I remember correctly they have a shoulder on them that fits in the holes in the sprocket before the thread starts, if you have no luck finding yours let me know and I'll have a rummage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oldtuckunder said:

Hi Roger

As your sensor looks like the identical ford one to mine with the angled head, do you know which way around the wires connect to it? Just that as I have to wire mine, and seeing the problem John had, given a 50:50 chance at the moment I'm likely to get it wrong!

Alan

PS I have a tin of bolts here from a stripped 1500 engine, should be some of those cam sprocket bolts in there, if I remember correctly they have a shoulder on them that fits in the holes in the sprocket before the thread starts, if you have no luck finding yours let me know and I'll have a rummage.

Hello Alan

                  This the way mine is wired (just checked on the car) with the key at the bottom its positive to the right.

I think the plug may be marked! (just remember plug is opposite from the front) do not ask how I know!!!!!! but same from back.

I like these VR sensor as they are as cheap as chips you can get Ford ones for a Tenner on fleabay as they fitted so many cars and vans(I have 3 now? not sure how that happened!)but I like to carry a spare it a bit like a set of points.

Roger

ps just checked and Triggerwheels show the same!

DSC06722.JPG

Edited by rogerguzzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that blood you have shed just to highlight the positive for me? :nurse:

Just got the Coil Pack and Edis mounted, but made a mod to the Edis plug that John might like to consider.  Once the Edis plug was clipped on I found I needed to use a big screw driver and bend the locating flap through a huge angle to get to get it clear the tag on the Edis unit, so far that with old plastic I was very worried about it snapping!  So taking a quick look and a Dremel  I reduced the height of the tag, the plug now locates with a nice click, but can be extracted by just lifting the flap a bit with a small screwdriver. I also thought that depending on mounting position even managing to lever the flap off the tap might be dam near impossible.

5aaafe02b52d8_EdisPlug1(Large).thumb.jpg.bdfd44ea9b827ca7f22a86e0bc3dd12d.jpg

5aaafdf1d2955_EdisPlug2(Large).thumb.jpg.e50fe168311b5362960c12ceadb10553.jpg

 

 

Looks like with a bit of luck the tails left on the Edis will reach the coil pack

5aaafce95febd_EdisCoilPack(Large).thumb.jpg.dfdcd5f3b77a0eb2286744893868c606.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Alan,  you PRESS the clip to release it, not lift it!

John

Hello John

                     Well that's the new knowledge for today! (I only had mine for 5 years and fitted one to a TR6!)

Alan

        Nothing is to much trouble or suffering for a mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have firing plugs, but not a firing engine.

Putting the timing gun on it revels that No.1 is firing nowhere near TDC, let alone at 10BTDC.    I can't even see the timimg marks on the pulley, it's so far, far out.    To date, it's John - 1 (reversed leads on the sensor) and Megajolt, or rather the Ford Motor Co.Inc - 1 (their product always works, if used properly). So I assume I'm still doing something wrong.

And as the timing appears to be way - way! - out, is it where I've put the sensor?   The Installation instructions (https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MJLJ_V3_vehicle_installation_guide) say that, at TDC on No.1, the sensor must. for a six-cylinder, be 60 degrees or six teeth behind the missing tooth.     The picture there shows the sensor(s) mounted above the toothed wheel, and many have put them there.  See page 1 and page 3 of this thread for Roger's and Royboy's installations.    Roy's is a runner too.

Edis_wheel.gif.9e12d8c43e7c54236b3dd029fea514ce.gif

 

But in my wisdom, I mounted it at approx. 8 o'clock as you look at the front of the engine.    But that shouldn't matter, should it?  The animated GIF shows that the sensor can be anywhere, as long as it's six teeth behind the missing at TDC.     And that's where mine is - the missing tooth is about ten o'clock, so 60 degrees.    I'll admit, as I have before, that it's more like five-and-a-half teeth behind the missing, but surely that would put the timing out by no more than 5 degrees.  I should at least be able to see the timing marks with the light, and I can't, so it's out by more than 60 degrees.

Why?  No idea at present.    I can try and correct the small error in the distance behiend the missing, but that means taking the pulley off, not a trivial task, I've got so much gubbins around the engine front, and the actual timing error seems so much bigger, is it worth it?

JOhn

Edited by JohnD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If No. 1 is at TDC, missing tooth at around 10 o'clock  and sensor close to 8 o'clock it should be running. Double check the coil connection, looks like it is firing another set of plugs... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Alfredo!  That's what I just did, and with the timing light pick-up on No.2, the timing marks appear around the TDC marker!   So the EDIS is 60 degrees out.

And thank you for that interpretation.     We know my supplier mis-wired the sensor - does that mean they miswired the coil as well?!?!

It's firing 2 and 5 when it should fire 1 and 6

5aac0b5fb0751_EDIS-6Module_harness.png.b317696cbff99097c764ae422ce984ae.png

If the wiring is as it appears here, then coil C, sparks 1 & 6.

But when C should, instead Coil A, 2 & 5 is firing. This says to me that my supplier wired them the opposite way around!   

A-3, B-2, C-1, instead of as above, A-1, B-2, C-3

If I swap the wires to those two coils and leave Coil B, it should be OK?!   I'm getting wire swap happy here; if I can't reverse the wires on the connector, I might just cut & shut again.

BUT.   Just had a look at the wiring.    It uses different colours to those above, but as you look down on the four-way connector, from left to right it goes Green-blue-purple-red, so the red, 12V+ wire is in the same place as above.   To avoid confusion I'll call the coils A-1, B-2 and C-3.       The coil connections from the EDIS pins should be, Coil A-1 from pin 10, B-2 from pin 11, C-3 from 12 - and they are, exactly as above.

So the wiring appears to be correct, not swapped around.

Confused, John

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets asume you have 3 coils, being a waste spark ignition on a 6 cylinder car each coil will fire every 120 degrees... You found which one is firing first, use that for #1 and #6 cylinder, findwhich one fires next and use that for #5 and #2, the last one to #3 and #4. Once the car runs you can chanche the order on the wires from the dis to the coil... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, JohnD said:

Alan,  you PRESS the clip to release it, not lift it!

John

Had me very confused with this! as no way could I see how pressing would work, until I looked at the picture of your Edis plug, and realised being that these are all SH that someone had already had the problem I describe with yours and they have completely removed the centre of the clip so it doesn't lock on.

Re your firing order take another look at dggt6's picture on page 4 and see if you can decide which coil pack you have, that ought to sort out which of wires 10/11/12 go to 1/2/3 on the coil pack.  I'm hoping from your description that it is just the wrong (or rather not the one you expect) coil firing.

Alan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, as Alfedo says, swap the leads around, don't mess with the sensor position if one coil pack fires at the right time. You can do this by re-ordering the HT or LT wires.

I've got the lead order wrong 3 times for three projects so you are following my procedure!

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello John

                    I agree just swop the plug leads in pairs 1&6 etc the coil does not care which pair is firing only the engine cares

Roger

ps Light at the end of the tunnel or is another bloody train coming?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!

No need to cut, shut, fiddle with connectors!     Roger and Nick, you are the Senior Wranglers!    Just swap the spark leads!!!!!!!   Who cares which coil gets zapped!  As long as long as it goes to the right cylinders.

Try it tommorow, too late now.

John

Edited by JohnD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John,

you may be passed this photo now but this is what I used to remind me how everything lined up.....

The original pulley is at TDC with the original timing mark and indicator. The (dirty greasy oily) VR sensor is aligned with the 6th tooth from the missing tooth which is at about 3 o' clock in this photo.

If you find that the coils are firing in a different order than expected, you may have the same problem that I had when my coil "sequence" was different to all the diagrams I found. This was in the 4 connection plug. The connectors were numbered 1,2,3,4 left to right on one pack, but  4,3,2,1 left to right on the other. Hopefully the sequence should be indicated somewhere near/in the socket.

I did notice that both coil packs firing sequence were A C B where B is the pack in the middle. Why did they do it this way? Why not A B C (Left, middle, right) Is this a "heat protection" sequence?????
If you do need to swap you coil sequence around to get it running, perhaps you should aim to repeat the Left, right middle, sequence?????

Cheers,
Doug

IMG_5506.JPG

IMG_0327.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×