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Trigger Wheel Mounting Vitesse

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Thanks, Rob - unfortunately on sucha a small cheap item, you have to go to the store to get it - they won't deliver, and my nearest is 25 miles away.  I'll get ther one day.

Roy, you installation very like mine.

Nick,  I bought the MJLJ ready wired.   There is a sheilded lead to the sensor, ready to plug in, and it'll onky go one way.  It could beb the  wrong way around I suppose.  I'll try eartahing the other three wires and see what happens.   Suppose I'll need a needle probe to ge though the plastic.

Roger, yes the coil pack is earthed.

Doug,  I'm using NGK Iridium plugs.  Are they "resistor" plugs?

John

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Right,  checked the wiring to the sensor, it has the correct polarity, positive terminal to terminal No.6 on EDIS.

I've checked the gap between sensor and wheel and it's less than 1mm.

AND - thanks, Nick! - a needle into the next wire into the coil pack, earthed, gets a spark!    There was a bigger one at the needle, but a definite spark.

and I've connected the plug leads as below.

Connecting plugs to coil pack.jpg

Could the sensor be faulty?   Roger, you put a trigger wheel on your lathe to test a sensor - how did you see the output?   Multimeter or oscilloscope?

And I'm trying this without the MJLJ connected, to remove complcation and as I read that the EDIS has its own "get-u-home" built-in map, that runs at a fixed 10 degres BTDC, that will allow this.

John

PS I'd go to the Horse's Mouth at Autosport Labs, that has forums, but I can't get in for some reason.    It tells me that my email address is already registered, but my password doesn't work and if I tell I've forgotten it, it never sends me a new one!  J

PPS Just found this page at Trigger Wheels.  Testing the wheel (to see how fast it can safely spin) and I'm reminded that the voltage from the sensor depends directly on the wheel speed.  http://trigger-wheels.com/store/contents/en-uk/d25.html  Theirs was 100V (!!) at 10K, although only 3V at 18rpm.  That should be readable with a multimeter!  Off to try it!  J

Edited by JohnD

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OK!  Spare trigger wheel in lathe, going at about 160rpm.

I put the sensor into the tool holder, and wound it so close to the teeth that I could feel the vibration of their attraction.  Any closer and its slight (very) non-centricity scraped the tip.      Multimeter attached to the terminals.   NOTHING!    Or at best a flicker, so I turned it from the 20V range to the 200mVolt - and there's a reading!    But it varies between 3 and 6 MILLIvolts.   Quite variable, but that might be the ever so slightly non-centric trigger wheel.

That says to me, duff sensor.     If TriggerWheels expect between 3 and 100V at 18 and 10K rpm,  on 3" wheel.    This one is about 5" and  I don't suppose it's linear, but at 160rpm surely its going to be around 160/18 times 3 or about 27V?  Or at least more than MILLIvolts !   

Which surprises me, as I thought that inductance sensors were as tough as old boots.   So, do the assembled Faculty of Electrical Engineering agree that it's new sensor time?   If this is the case, then I'm mightily relieved to have found the fault.     My thanks to you all!

John

PS TriggerWheels site lists the right sensor, but the ordering page isn't working.     Borrocks.     Lots of Ford crank sensors for sale online, none with the same connection.        Further research finds that what I have is a PC19 sensor, from a '91-96 Escort (and maybe other models?) and the only other I can find is in the US and will cost me £10.70.  Plus a minimum of £17 postage!!!!!!!!!!! (and probably VAT and import Duty!)  I'll go on looking.    J.

Edited by JohnD

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As far as I could discover most VR sensors have the same electrical characteristics and variations are mostly in the overall shape, mounting arrangements and socket type.  Pretty sure the sensor I use is from a Ford that doesn't actually have EDIS.  3 wire sensors will be Hall effect and won't work.

The real Ford sensors are very tough and long-lived.  The aftermarket ones, not so much.  Good idea to carry a spare as they are show-stoppers.

Nick

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A VR (variable reluctance) sensor is basically just a coil would round a magnet.  Very little to go wrong and you can can do a basic check easily by measuring for coil resistance between the connector pins. 

In your test you may be being fooled by your multimeter - I guess its a digital one which you have set on AC volts? The output of the sensor will be spikes which the multimeter cannot handle properly because it is calibrated for sine-waves.  It is probably reading the average of the spikes which will be quite low. You really need an oscilloscope for that test.

Rob

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A VR (variable reluctance) sensor is basically just a coil would round a magnet.  Very little to go wrong and you can can do a basic check easily by measuring for coil resistance between the connector pins. 

In your test you may be being fooled by your multimeter - I guess its a digital one which you have set on AC volts? The output of the sensor will be spikes which the multimeter cannot handle properly because it is calibrated for sine-waves.  It is probably reading the average of the spikes which will be quite low. You really need an oscilloscope for that test.

Rob

 

The 'sort of' sinewaves shown on the TriggerWheel site are at 10000rpm where everything has smoothed out due to time-constants.  At 160 rpm the waveform won't look like that at all. 

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No, Rob, I set it to DC. And - DOH! - of course the output isn't DC but AC!

With the meter set to AC and the 200V range I get a constant 1.3V!  So the peaks are probably a bit more than that? 

 And the resistance is about 200 Ohms.  That corrects the dud-sensor diagnosis, I presume?

I don't need to find another, but that leaves me with no solutions to the lack of spark when the engine turns over.

Borrocks.

John

 

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1 hour ago, JohnD said:

No, Rob, I set it to DC. And - DOH! - of course the output isn't DC but AC!

With the meter set to AC and the 200V range I get a constant 1.3V!  So the peaks are probably a bit more than that? 

 And the resistance is about 200 Ohms.  That corrects the dud-sensor diagnosis, I presume?

I don't need to find another, but that leaves me with no solutions to the lack of spark when the engine turns over.

Borrocks.

John

 

Hello  John

                     Faulty Edits unit? I do not know how you test them!

I could probably find you some resistors when I get home (I have a large selection from the late father in law and messing with odd circuits etc)

Roger 

Ps or still duff wiring?

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IMG_0327.thumb.JPG.70563d25256c3ae7e3d7492e9c16af58.JPGHi John,

If your plug part number has an "R" in it , the plug is a resistor type. eg BPR5ES-11.

What brand of coil pack do you have? The one I was having trouble with was a different configuration to the diagram you have posted.
My coil pack on the left looked for all intents and purposes to be the same as all the others except you will notice that the four pin plug is numbered in the opposite direction and the plug wires (P1 - P6) are a different sequence. With the plug wires correctly sequenced correctly, it fired first pop!

Cheers,
Doug

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Only because I'm confused, still learning, so forgive my ignorance, but hopefully some responses will educate me.

But I assumed that with wasted spark that when the correct cylinder was firing, the cylinder that got the wasted spark was the one that was almost at the end of its exhaust stroke, also looking at the coil packs (and this is where I may be very mistaken) they are grouped in pairs and are triggered by (in the case of a 6) 3 wires, i.e. a signal on a wire fired a coil which fired two cylinders, 1 good and 1 wasted.  So looking at the coil pack layouts having 1&6 paired, 5&2 and 3&4 paired made perfect sense.  So the layout of the Visteon coil pack above makes perfect sense to me, whereas the layout of the motorcraft one doesn't for a 6 with a firing order of 153624.

Educate me please!

Alan

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Your understanding is quite correct. The Ford packs are mostly for V6 engines with different firing order - so if you use their numbering, bad things happen.  The Motorcraft sketch is miss-numbered for a Triumph 6.

 

Nick

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Hi Alan,
yes it is very confusing especially as I am pretty sure I am "numerically dyslexic" ( Dyscalculia)!!!!

I think it is the numbering on the coil packs that throws everything into confusion. The coils fire in the A, C, B order, so we have to match our Triumph firing order to the coil pack order.
Both coil packs are shown with plug No1 and Plug No6 connected to Coil A, Coil C has plugs 5 & 2 , Coil B has plugs 3 & 4.
Where I also ran into trouble was not reading the 4 pin plug correctly and just counting from left to right as per Johns diagram.

I hope this make sense!!!

Cheers,
Doug


 

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5 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Your understanding is quite correct. The Ford packs are mostly for V6 engines with different firing order - so if you use their numbering, bad things happen.  The Motorcraft sketch is miss-numbered for a Triumph 6.

 

Nick

Hello  All 

              When I did my brother in laws Tr6 I just looked at the coil pack and decided which coils fire together made a new label and stuck it to the side and wired it as the crank throws 1 and whichever it is that's a the top a the same time (wasted spark)

So just first 3 to set in order ( think that is what I did?) I am not a 6 man!

I may have my notes at home but they may have gone with the car!

Roger

 

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30 minutes ago, JohnD said:

I used the connectuions as I set out above,    Pack firirng ACB,  Triump 153624:

 

Connecting plugs to coil pack.jpg

Looks good to me

Double check all edis wiring and trust nothing especialy the plug with old wires you connected to

Do a meter test on each one connetor  pin to cable and waggle it (the cable that is) after that I am stumped (edis?)

Roger

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Are you you guys sure the Motorcraft drawing is incorrect for a Triumph? The numbers "inside" the box is the coil pack labeling. The numbers outside the box are the Spark Plug numbers (P1, P2 etc).   Plug Sequence 153624 goes with Coil pack ACBACB. Both drawings should be correct???

Cheers,
Doug


 

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John, if I may step into the realm of silly questions for a moment, are you using the plug leads that came with/suit  the coil pack? You haven't cobbled together old Triumph plug leads to "get it going?

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1 hour ago, dggt6 said:

Are you you guys sure the Motorcraft drawing is incorrect for a Triumph? The numbers "inside" the box is the coil pack labeling. The numbers outside the box are the Spark Plug numbers (P1, P2 etc).   Plug Sequence 153624 goes with Coil pack ACBACB. Both drawings should be correct???

Cheers,
Doug


 

Ah I see what you mean, and now to me both your drawings show what I understand to be the correct firing sequence 

Alan

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As you know, no question is silly, unless you already know the answer!   I'm delighted to ne made to think on what I've done, as an aid to diagnosis.

If by the "numbers in the box" you mena those in the circles, I added those to show how I've connected the plugs.  No guarantee of being correct.

And I did try to fit conventional plug leads, but found that my coil pack needs the special Ford clip-on connectors.   See pic.     But in fact I bought a set from that site, and Andrew Fitchett (Mr.Retro-Leads) made up a special set for me to accomodate the poistion I've chosen for the coil pack, for a very reasonable cost.   And very quickly!

What is most frustrating is that when I bought the MJLJ set, I opted for a  kit with a fully rebuilt EDIS loom, all rewired.     The only connection I have had to make is to wire the MJLJ module itself, whch I haven't yet connected, hoping to start and run the engine first on the internal EDIS 'limp-u-home', 10degree advance everywhere, map. So no old wiresd, Roger and no old connectors.     If I had connected the MJLJ I'd be blaming that, and at least I don't have to do that.  Yet.

Plan next - probe the big connector to the EDIS unit with my multimeter, check that Volts and signals getting as far as that.

And, I MAY be able to borrow a Picoscope.  This page shows how to check the PIP (Pick-up Ignition Profile) and SAW (Spark Advance Word) signals: https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests/edis-unit-pip-saw-signals/   (I didnd't know what those acronyms meant before I read that!)

There are a number of other test procedures on that site: https://www.picoauto.com/library/automotive-guided-tests

 

 

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Silly thought John, have you tried plugging all six leads in and leaving the plugs hanging loose but earthed and cranking it over to see if you get a spark at any of them any of the time? you could even do this with the sensor on your lathe and the edis and coil pack on the bench.

Alan

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Wasted spark concept means the coil secondaries are "double ended".  That is that they are not earthed except via HT leads.  Leave both ends dangling, nothing will happen, earth one end, you'll get sparks at the other.  This is why disconnecting 1 lead will drop two cylinders, earthing one lead will only drop one.

Nick

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woo Nick you just jumped way over my understanding, however it could be I just didn't understand?

Are you saying that if I have a plug out, connected to an HT lead and the body of the plug earthed that I won't get a spark? 

Ah no maybe the penny drops, when you say disconnecting 1 lead will drop two cylinders, you mean a lead from the edis to the coil pack, not a plug lead.

Sorry but I have to learn as I'm soon to follow in John's footsteps :biggrin:

Alan

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Just found this 

 on this very site.  And Mjit got his going with a replacement EDIS!  So they can go rogue!

I'll keep that as a final backstop.

JOhn

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