Jump to content
oldtuckunder

Trigger Wheel Mounting Vitesse

Recommended Posts

Hi Wise Ones

Have the Radiator out of the Vitesse, and am contemplating Trigger Wheel mounting options for the contemplated Electronic Ignition. I have some options and also some issues, and wondered if anyone had any thoughts. Now as anyone with a Vitesse or GT6 knows there isn't that much room in front of the crank pulley, and especially if like me you have an electric fan engine side of the radiator, so my Crank Shaft Bolt is already one of the short ones on a short mounting spacer. I would also like to mention that with everything else installed I just have room to get a long spanner on that bolt head to turn the engine for setting tappets etc, so I don't want to loose that.

As you can see from the pictures there isn't room to mount a Trigger Wheel on the back face of the pulley well not unless I can get one about 2mm thick, and as I'm not sure how much the teeth need to protude it might also foul the timing marker (which it would be nice to keep). Also bolting/welding to the extremities of the pulley also probably isn't a good idea as its of the rubber harmonic type, and whilst the rubber is good, if it did start to slip or fail it would be a bugg.r to have the timing move with it.

So I'm thinking the only option is to look at holding it on with the crank shaft bolt, or rather as if I need to remove it (and undoing a 100ftlb bolt with anything other than a long persuader and a fair amount of room is impossible), actually put a small 5mm thick collar under the bolt to centre the trigger wheel, and then drill and tap the boss under the bolt (it is dowelled to the pulley) and bolt the trigger wheel to the pulley. 

OK so I may have somewhere to bolt the trigger wheel, but then we get on to the next issue, mounting  the sensor, I know it has to go somewhere so that it aligns with the missing tooth "n" degrees before TDC, I know it varies by engine type but can I find out what it should be for a straight 6 no I can't!   But any way assuming its somewhere between 20 and 180 BTDC It looks like I have plenty of room to make/fit a bracket that will mount the sensor, and also a selection of useful bolt heads to attach the bracket to.  OK so here is my real problem, now I understand that the sensor head has to be within a few mm or thou of the trigger wheel, so I make a neat bracket that comes off and positions the sensor next to the wheel that is mounted on the front of the pulley (like most of the example pictures you see everywhere. HOW DO I GET THE FAN BELT OFF?

As far as I can see the only options are 1) Unbolt the sensor bracket and risk not getting it back in the right place on a damp night, or 2) Unbolt the Trigger Wheel in a very confined space.

As a fan belt has to be one of the most likely failures (Oh alright I can't remember when I last had one) so do I keep a set of spanner just for this job always in the car, or can a bit of sideways thinking solve it?

Oh I have measured and I can't mount a trigger wheel on the front of the pulley but behind the belt pulley as its not deep enough and the belt would be rubbing on it.

Alan

Crankpulley1.thumb.jpg.bd4704b34a715ab12841377f88784ce0.jpg   

Crankpulley2.thumb.jpg.8ae02c4853747c86fd34546b47a83b8a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan

                 I machined a TR6 crank pulley for the teeth it was an after market one and the inner part of the vee groove was bigger than the front I will find a photo if I can

This may help and its the same for Microsquirt

  • EDIS-4: missing tooth is exactly nine teeth (90°) ahead of the VR sensor,
  • EDIS-6: missing tooth is exactly six teeth (60°) ahead of the VR sensor,
  • EDIS-8: missing tooth is exactly five teeth (50°) ahead of the VR sensor.

Roger

Edited by rogerguzzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I turned down the centre weight of the pulley ever so slightly, enough to let me mount the wheel flush to the pulley face , and tap 4 holes for my wheel.

The mount for the sensor has channels in the back to sit flush on the cover, and is tapped from behind.  Three o-ringed and loctited machine screws hold it in place.

The wheel only adds 3mm to the face of the pulley this way.

 

IMG_3019.jpg

With Megasquirt you can dial in the exact degrees of offset.  It's a good idea to be in the 60 degree region still though, as it puts it out of the compression squeeze area that can confuse the ecu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Duh!  of course it only took the first Sideways Genius to point out my error, I was foolishly looking at mounting the sensor on the outside of the trigger wheel in the 6 o'clock thru 10 o'clock position to get the missing tooth offset from TDC, forgetting that the missing tooth can of course go anywhere in relation to TDC as long as the sensor moves also. And of course in the above the sensor is still on the outside of the trigger wheel, but inside the belt loop. Now I'm feeling stupid!

Many thanks, especially as my centre boss is already turned down so the Trigger wheel will sit flush and I can just bolt to the boss. Just got to work out a mounting bracket for sensor!

Alan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What Craig has is more or less the same as I had on my PI - except I used the trigger wheel sawn off the pulley of a Sierra 1.8CVH.  I even managed to get the mechanical fan back on afterwards (and that even still missed the radiator - just).  Working out how to get the fan bolt holes in the right spot and still have the missing tooth in the right place did lead to the smell of burning hair though.

Vitesse has the same trigger wheel arrangement as the PI, but a detachable sensor bracket that bolts to the front plate.  It's a stupid design as the bracket has to come off to change the fan belt - but it does the job.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someopne was selling a thin trigger wheel a while ago, so this is what I did with it as clearance was so tight.

The red nose cone was turned down from the original cylindrical spacer, to clear the electric fan motor.

 

But since then, I've moved the engine back, by putting the support brackets behind the turret mounts, clearance is not a problem any more, and the first whel is on a another project.

So I have a convenetional thick wheel, like this.

 

John

 

 

DSCF1111.JPG

DSCF1239.JPG

P1030608.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks John

I had seen pictures of those fold over wheels, but on a quick search I couldn't find any, were the mounting screws into the outer or inner ring of the damper pulley. I had wondered if I might just squeeze one in at the back if I used counter sunk set screws to keep everything as thin as possible.

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it might have been Tim Ward (Club Triumph Forum) made a batch of those.  Was quite a while ago now.......

He's been poorly but did pop up on the CT forum a couple of months back.  He's Worcester way too IIRC......

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan

                  These photos may not help but rear mounted is Spitty and front mounted is TR6 and the temperature sensor is were I fitted it on the TR6

 

Roger

DSCF0523.JPG

IMG_0412.JPG

IMG_0401.JPG

IMG_0402.JPG

IMG_0406.JPG

DSCF0526.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Thanks John

I had seen pictures of those fold over wheels, but on a quick search I couldn't find any, were the mounting screws into the outer or inner ring of the damper pulley. I had wondered if I might just squeeze one in at the back if I used counter sunk set screws to keep everything as thin as possible.

Alan

 

Ooops!  Forgot!

Yes, those hex-head screws fouled the timing cover, just.  Made a terrifying noise on start-up!   I was sure all big ends had gone at once!

Modified with counter-sunk head screws - fine!

 

My sesnor mount v.similar to Roger's.   Lower mount hole circular, upper slotted on a radius, to allow distance adjustment.

JOhn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it was Tim Ward who produced those "thin" trigger wheels. I believe he donated the money to charity. Well done Tim:thanks:.

I too bent mine over believing I needed a bigger "surface area" for the VR Sensor to read. I now believe it shouldn't matter and it was another one of the myriad of gremlins that was giving me grief at the time!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK my megajolt kit has arrived, and very comprehensive too, enough reels of wire in there to sort the blackpool tower, they obviously don't want any complaints that the wires aren't long enough, wow I didn't realise how much those coil packs weigh, maybe time to move the battery to the boot so I have somewhere to mount it, and balance the extra weight out a bit!

OK all I'm going  to do first off is get the trigger wheel and crank sensor mounted whilst I have the radiator out, then I'll get the engine back and running on conventional distributor, and then wire in the megajolt. Very tight between pulley and radiator so want to get this right!

So my conundrum, the obvious way is to drill centre of trigger wheel for Crank Shaft Bolt, get the trigger wheel in position and crank sensor mounted, then just drill a small slot in the trigger wheel (for fine adjustment), tap the boss that is normally held by a locating pin and the crank shaft bolt, use a small bolt to lock the trigger wheel in place, then tighten the big bolt 100ftlb?

But what happens if I need to move the trigger wheel? To do that then means undoing that crank shaft bolt, which means radiator out (plus a whole bunch of other gubbins) to get a long enough bar on it.  

So was wondering instead of using the crank shaft bolt to hold the trigger wheel on, if I bored the centre of the trigger wheel to just clear the head of the crank shaft bolt, and secured the trigger wheel to the small boss with three or four set screws, then is I have slotted the trigger wheel holes all I have to do is loosen the the set screws to adjust. I don't think only having the trigger wheel secured with 3 or set screws should be a problem should it, rotating at 6.5k its only doing what the original metal fan was doing held on by four bolts.

Thoughts?

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK my megajolt kit has arrived, and very comprehensive too, enough reels of wire in there to sort the blackpool tower, they obviously don't want any complaints that the wires aren't long enough, wow I didn't realise how much those coil packs weigh, maybe time to move the battery to the boot so I have somewhere to mount it, and balance the extra weight out a bit!

OK all I'm going  to do first off is get the trigger wheel and crank sensor mounted whilst I have the radiator out, then I'll get the engine back and running on conventional distributor, and then wire in the megajolt. Very tight between pulley and radiator so want to get this right!

So my conundrum, the obvious way is to drill centre of trigger wheel for Crank Shaft Bolt, get the trigger wheel in position and crank sensor mounted, then just drill a small slot in the trigger wheel (for fine adjustment), tap the boss that is normally held by a locating pin and the crank shaft bolt, use a small bolt to lock the trigger wheel in place, then tighten the big bolt 100ftlb?

But what happens if I need to move the trigger wheel? To do that then means undoing that crank shaft bolt, which means radiator out (plus a whole bunch of other gubbins) to get a long enough bar on it.  

So was wondering instead of using the crank shaft bolt to hold the trigger wheel on, if I bored the centre of the trigger wheel to just clear the head of the crank shaft bolt, and secured the trigger wheel to the small boss with three or four set screws, then is I have slotted the trigger wheel holes all I have to do is loosen the the set screws to adjust. I don't think only having the trigger wheel secured with 3 or set screws should be a problem should it, rotating at 6.5k its only doing what the original metal fan was doing held on by four bolts.

Thoughts?

Alan

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oldtuckunder said:

OK my megajolt kit has arrived, and very comprehensive too, enough reels of wire in there to sort the blackpool tower, they obviously don't want any complaints that the wires aren't long enough, wow I didn't realise how much those coil packs weigh, maybe time to move the battery to the boot so I have somewhere to mount it, and balance the extra weight out a bit!

OK all I'm going  to do first off is get the trigger wheel and crank sensor mounted whilst I have the radiator out, then I'll get the engine back and running on conventional distributor, and then wire in the megajolt. Very tight between pulley and radiator so want to get this right!

So my conundrum, the obvious way is to drill centre of trigger wheel for Crank Shaft Bolt, get the trigger wheel in position and crank sensor mounted, then just drill a small slot in the trigger wheel (for fine adjustment), tap the boss that is normally held by a locating pin and the crank shaft bolt, use a small bolt to lock the trigger wheel in place, then tighten the big bolt 100ftlb?

But what happens if I need to move the trigger wheel? To do that then means undoing that crank shaft bolt, which means radiator out (plus a whole bunch of other gubbins) to get a long enough bar on it.  

So was wondering instead of using the crank shaft bolt to hold the trigger wheel on, if I bored the centre of the trigger wheel to just clear the head of the crank shaft bolt, and secured the trigger wheel to the small boss with three or four set screws, then is I have slotted the trigger wheel holes all I have to do is loosen the the set screws to adjust. I don't think only having the trigger wheel secured with 3 or set screws should be a problem should it, rotating at 6.5k its only doing what the original metal fan was doing held on by four bolts.

Thoughts?

Alan

 

Hello Alan

                    I would just fix the trigger wheel to the pulley solid and make the VR sensor bracket adjustable in and out as long as you are within +/- 10degs(I think) of the correct position you can alter the fine adjustment via the software.

But you need to adjust the VR sensor in and out  to run close and you want the trigger wheel to run true(I skimmed mine after mounting it onto the pulley)

Roger

ps you can see the slot for adjustment in photo.

Edited by rogerguzzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Roger

OK sounds good, even I think I can get within 10 deg as a start point.

Regarding in and out, looking at the slots on the mounting brackets they seem designed to slide the sensor back and forth in a horizontal plane to the teeth, but looks like I also need to create a mounting that moves the sensor in/out in vertical plane to get the gap right between teeth and sensor.

Alan  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Hi Roger

OK sounds good, even I think I can get within 10 deg as a start point.

Regarding in and out, looking at the slots on the mounting brackets they seem designed to slide the sensor back and forth in a horizontal plane to the teeth, but looks like I also need to create a mounting that moves the sensor in/out in vertical plane to get the gap right between teeth and sensor.

Alan  

Hello Alan

                  I have just checked and the offset trigger angle is 5degs  +/ - =10egs total

But as you say getting to +/- 5 degs is not difficult (I think mine is 1 to 1.5 -)

The VR sensor only has to move about +/- 1mm to get the gap correct

I just arranged the bracket so the VR sensor was square on to the trigger wheel when touching(I do not think the very very slight angle it will be at when at 0.5mm to 1mm gap will make any difference.

I just did the usual fixed stop for TDC and the put the VR sensor in the middle of the tooth and seeing as the teeth are 10degs apart you should not be more than 5degs out!

Roger

ps its a pity you can not ditch the Edis bit and drive the coil pack direct(less wiring) on the Microsquirt I use the VW/Skoda coil pack with built in amplifiers and they are cheap as chips but that is for 4 cylinders not sure about 6 cylinders!

Edited by rogerguzzi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why would you need to move the trigger wheel?  Man of your abilities should be able to get it within a degree or two (probably bang-on in fact) and even if not you can adjust the sensor position or use the software offset facility.

There are more variants of the pulley assembly than most would imagine.  On some of them (2.0L only AFAIK) the pulley separates from the torsional damper though it's not immediately obvious.  I only noticed because I dropped one on the floor and it came apart.  I thought I'd broken it.  Not sure if that's useful information or not - this happened after I'd don the Vitesse conversion and when I considered exploiting it for the PI I found that the 2.5 ones are different (or at least all of the 4 I had) and not separable.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan

                 I have had another idea(been to the pub! well TR Register group meeting)

If I was doing it again I would fix the VR sensor were ever you want it then I would mount the trigger wheel on a register and then just rotate it to the position to correspond with the TDC setting then fix it solid at that point(it does not need adjustment! software will do that)just forget mechanical distributors and their variations etc!

Plus fit a temperature sensor and then you can tell the software to advance at cold and retard at hot(and you can play) it made a difference to Spitty in Spain at 30+ C

Plus you will able to play with lots of advance at high vacuum and retard at low vacuum(not sure how much help with sprinting?)

Still it will keep you amused / frustrated for the next few months(still better than any crossword or scubydo puzzle!)

Roger

ps I get my new Newman PH2 camshaft tomorrow and I bit the bullet and bought the steel followers(as and old works engineer used to say no pointing spoiling the ship for a heypeth of tar!)

just need the block and crank back now and finish porting the head(I get bored!)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK WHERE IS TOP DEAD CENTRE "Do I Care"

Finally found some time to go out and start playing with mounting the Trigger Wheel, and spurred on by Nick's comment thought we would aim for smack on TDC.

But where is TDC, I have always known before but now I have a degree or two of doubt (get the pun?)

In the past I have always used a degree wheel and a fixed piston stop about 1" down the bore. Easy wind one way mark the degree wheel, wind the other way mark the wheel, and smack bang between the two is TDC, which on my Vitesse has always lined up with the 0 deg mark on the pulley, with the zero degree mark in line with the pointer on the cover. Magic!

Anyway as I have the head off at the moment, I thought I'd do a double check with my dial gauge. Its a good one measuring to .0001 so I turn the crank until the needle stops and find that this actually occurs at 1 deg BTDC, recheck multiple times always 1 BTDC.  Wind the crank about 60 past TDC and then back again and am surprised to see the needle flick and stop .001 higher. Repeat several times pushing probe up in correct direction taking well past TDC and then winding back and always get an extra .0008 to .001 extra lift going backwards. And what's really strange is that high point is actually at 2 deg BTDC (not 2 before going backwards but actually where 2 BTDC would be going the right way.

Ok I know there has to be a minuscule dwell point right at the top of the stroke where the piston is neither rising or falling, but I'm really confused why highest lift in correct rotation is actually hit 1 BTDC (as taken from degree wheel), and why there should be an extra thou of lift going backwards, and why it occurs at 1 deg offset.

OK I know 1 deg in ignition timing is going to make very little difference, but............

Alan

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even with a DTI the best method IMO remains to marks two equal points either side of TDC and split the difference - due to the aforementioned dwell period and maybe even a bit of piston rock. 

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan

                  Just bolt a stop  to stop piston 1/2" down the bore and do it the same as before it is the most accurate (trust me) the DTi at tdc  no closer than 1 to 2 degs if not more!

Plus it is easier to use a stop.

Roger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok I'll use my stop marked TDC which just happens to match with the pulley mark and pointer, just found it interesting that using a Dial produced a different result.

Alan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Alan

                  Was the dti in the middle of the piston? could be a bit of piston tilt and if the Gudgen pin is off set it would be different (I think?) each way

Roger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 2L has no gudgeon pin offset but I still encountered small amounts of tip when I was measuring for deck height if I didn't measure dead centre.  Admittedly no rings fitted and they would tend to stabilise things I think.

Nick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×