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rogerguzzi

Fuel Cooling

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Personally I'd prefer something smaller - lower volume and more compact.  Just worry about vulnerability to damage!

 

I note that if you stick "fuel cooler" into ebay search you get all sorts of cute little heat exchangers though pretty pricey for what they are.  Probably a simple, and almost free spiral of copper/kunifer tube would do the trick.

 

Nick

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Hello Nick

                How about this one? its just a piece of pipe with fins on it! so no more risk than the existing pipes?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rover-Freelander-TD4-2-0-5dr-2003-53-reg-Diesel-Fuel-Cooler/272751206183?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

Or a bit more fancy?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RANGE-ROVER-L322-TD6-BMW-E53-X5-E46-330D-E39-M57-DIESEL-FUEL-COOLER-RADIATOR/272771610572?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

And looks quite small? assuming the pipes are 10mm I think it is about 200mm x 100mm x 50mm (8" x 4" x 2")

 

Perhaps somewhere up by the Differential? or the first just along the chassis rail?

 

Roger

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The lower item from BMW is the one I have in use on both cars.

It is located in front of the radiator and works perfect.

Hello Triumph-V8

                             I have ordered one of those at £15 it seems good value? and I assume they are good quality?

 

I am not sure were I will fit it? I will offer it up when it arrives  to see were I can fit it best.

 

Thank,s

Roger

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It looks like BMW quality but I would not

mount it where stone chips can damage it.

 

So with EFI we have the advantage that the pressure regulator

is in the front and we have the low pressure return line from there.

That is a nice place to fit the cooler.

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Hello All

             My fuel cooler came today(£15 inc p&p)

 

Here is a couple of photos,  It measures 160mm x 100mm x 80mm and for all you racers it weighs 256gms(so less than having you breakfast before a race!)

 

I also measured the capacity and it is near as damm it 80cc so considering the surface area I think it must be quite efficient?

 

Its just where to fit it now(over the winter with new engine) I do not think we will over heat in Northern Ireland!

 

Roger

 

ps just needs a quick coat of aluminium paint

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Hello All

               I have decided to fit the fuel cooler here! I do not think it will effect the radiator cooling as it is not going to give off much heat and the air can pass through it!

The hoses are only temporary ones just to see how they would look! I will fit it when I change the engine in the next week or two

Roger

 

DSC06776.JPG

DSC06777.JPG

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Just so jealous about all that real  estate in front of the radiator, electric fan, fuel cooler, and room for the odd deck chair or two, whilst between the rad an grill on the Vitesse there is just about room for a Knat,  provided it had hit at high speed and been flattened!

Alan  

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18 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

Just so jealous about all that real  estate in front of the radiator, electric fan, fuel cooler, and room for the odd deck chair or two, whilst between the rad an grill on the Vitesse there is just about room for a Knat,  provided it had hit at high speed and been flattened!

Alan  

Hello Alan

                   Just to upset you I have two fans fitted and they cut in at different temperatures(high heat one never comes on! only when I panic in Spanish heat and hit the manual switch!

Roger

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20 hours ago, oldtuckunder said:

Just so jealous about all that real  estate in front of the radiator, electric fan, fuel cooler, and room for the odd deck chair or two, whilst between the rad an grill on the Vitesse there is just about room for a Knat,  provided it had hit at high speed and been flattened!

Alan  

:biggrin:Too true!

Nick

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Hello All

                That,s it committed! bonnet is off Just all the bits and pieces to remove now!

Still should slow the oil leaks down when rebuilt engine is in(WELL OILED Chassis at the front!)

Plus it will be a chance to try my NEW bonnet for fit!

My mates son called today and thinks there would be no problem welding the GT6 bulge in(Straight 6 next?)

If he is capable of work like this I think my bonnet will be ok plus he will do it at work where there is a body panel man!

Roger

ps I wonder what a GT6 bonnet is worth?

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Tom.jpg

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Hello All

               How things all change in a few hours!

Bonnet back on as the car may be needed as the mother in law is not well and had to go into hospital so I need Spitty working as a second car so the engine will have to wait!

Thank goodness I had not started removing all the ancillaries!

Still new tyres are on admittedly they are old stock and 2 1/2 years old but that still gives them 5 to 6 years life and they were only £132 for all four fitted and balanced!

New named ones would have been £200+ for 8 years life so It all works out at £25 per year for both types

Plus in 5/6 years I will be 78/79 (if still here?) so I do not think it was a bad decision?

While fitting wheels back on had a look at pads and decided to fit another NOS set(Girling with Asbestos!) but have ordered new discs as a bit worn on inner faces £30 delivered(something else that will see me out!)

All boot petrol pipes replaced (Gates stuff) so hoping fuel smell has gone from in the boot!

Roger

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Hello All

                Fuel cooler fitted and getting close to firing up the new engine!

I piped it in with copper pipe and just short lengths of (expensive)rubber hose

I am feeling quite nervous its been a while since I rebuilt an engine with so many modifications!

On another thread I was asking about oil, there is a good article on the TSSC forum about oil.

I think I will order some Classic Oils Heritage 20/50 as it looks to be good oil at a realistic price(I may have a drive down to Bicester as I need to put miles on the new engine)

Roger

ps just waiting for the new oil thermostat fitting

 

DSC06906.JPG

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I missed all this about the fuel cooler, Roger.

With my H&S hat on, it fills me with foreboding!    You do have a impact cut-out on the fuel pump, please say yes?   And a fire extinguisher plumbed-in, with a nozzle pointing at that so very vulnerable cooler?

Consider remounting it further back, so that the front chassis cross member has to energy absorbed before it's hit?  You have a good foot or so, and six inches might do it.

Bests,

John

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On 5/31/2018 at 9:17 PM, JohnD said:

I missed all this about the fuel cooler, Roger.

With my H&S hat on, it fills me with foreboding!    You do have a impact cut-out on the fuel pump, please say yes?   And a fire extinguisher plumbed-in, with a nozzle pointing at that so very vulnerable cooler?

Consider remounting it further back, so that the front chassis cross member has to energy absorbed before it's hit?  You have a good foot or so, and six inches might do it.

Bests,

John

Hello John

                    You are right as usual!

I have moved the fuel cooler back and the small tube in front of it is just a piece of 8mm copper pipe so would collapse easy.

It may not be as effective now but it is just an extra for when we are in hot countries and down to half a tank or less of fuel.

I do have a fuel cut out switch I fitted one about 6 years ago when I fitted an electric fuel pump.

You will have me and the Memsahib wearing nomex suits next and fitting a roll bar etc?

I do fancy some of those lightweight dancing boots you all wear for racing!!!!

Roger

ps I may change that tube to one at an angle as looking at the photo it could go straight through the fuel cooler! its only to support the bottom so the top bracket does not fracture with vibration.

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Edited by rogerguzzi

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Thank you Roger!   That looks a better position!

Nomex overalls?   Very unflattering!   But a fire extinguisher in ever car is recommended by the Fire Service:https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/.    But in my experience, those little glove pocket units are useless.  A full 2L unit will give a better chance. But they need to be in there with you, no scrabbling in the boot.   

John 

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On 6/3/2018 at 8:04 PM, JohnD said:

Thank you Roger!   That looks a better position!

Nomex overalls?   Very unflattering!   But a fire extinguisher in ever car is recommended by the Fire Service:https://www.fireservice.co.uk/safety/vehicle-fires/.    But in my experience, those little glove pocket units are useless.  A full 2L unit will give a better chance. But they need to be in there with you, no scrabbling in the boot.   

John 

Hello John

                    I have a 1lt extinguisher in front of the Memsahib,s seat so is handy 2lt would have her feet in the air!

Roger

 

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Better than nothing, Roger, but best action in case of a fuel fire is probably get out, get away, don't try and fight it,  it's only property.    Which may be true of any fire.

This is a real shout, no training exercise.  OK, it's well alight, but see how much water is needed to put it out, and how far the firefighters will stand back from the vehicle.    They can, they have powerful hoses.    A little handheld extinguisher will barely reach more than you can by hand.

 

A recent Facebook post showed a rally service area, where a car had to have to fuel tank dropped off.     Fuel was spilt, and it caught fire.    Despite a well set-up service are, with full, 9Kg extinguishers to hand, they could not put it out.  No one was hurt, but the car and the surroundings burnt out.

JOhn

 

 

Edited by JohnD

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Hello John

                   I agree the best steps in case of a fire are F*****g big ones away from it unless life is in danger.

Roger

ps one of the few advantages of diesel?

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Fuel fires are scary........  Dad's Peugeot 404 caught fire in a petrol station in Francistown, Botswana.  We (much) later discovered there was a hole in the fuel pump diaphragm which was slowly filling the sump with petrol and leading to it blowing large amounts of petrol'ly oil out of every breather and orifice.  Having just refuelled, the restart caused an impressive, though mercifully very short-lived fireball and a thump that undid the bonnet catch.  Being an African petrol station none of the several fire extinguishers had anything in them.  This was offset by being on the edge of the Kalahari, so sand supplies were more than ample.  We, aided by the station attendant and several other patrons, pushed it away from the pumps and onto a convenient sandy patch.... and threw handfuls of sand at it.  That and a soaking wet towel did the trick.  We were lucky as most of the loose fuel/fumes burnt off in the initial flash and there isn't that much to burn under a 404 bonnet.  Everyone moved pretty quick too - seemed like a an age at the time but it was probably only 90 seconds from start to finish. Total damage was some mildly crispy HT leads and the pump to carb fuel hose burnt through.  The latter was unfortunate as it got the blame for the fire and delayed diagnosis of the actual problem for another 600km or so.  The bonnet was never quite the same shape again either, but as it was already covered in hail dents it made little odds.

Diesel advantages....... fuel efficiency....... torque........ longevity (well, was true once) and fuel less prone to catching fire.  Though as most car fires these days are caused by electrical faults this last may be irrelevant.  I'm quite fond of the Soot Monster but doubt I'd buy a modern diesel.

If you spill petrol and brake fluid on a hot exhaust, which is more likely to burst into flames......?

Nick

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I like the idea of having a fuel cooler .. fuel boils at low temps (I actually have fuel boiling in petrol tanks on the rolling road it gets so hot in some tanks) and anything you can do to keep it cooler is a good thing I think ?  The good news is you can put the cooler anywhere you want to (within reason) and just duct cold air from a high pressure area at the front of the car with large bore convoluted pipes. As long as the other side of the cooler vents to a low pressure area you will still get good airflow across the matrix and keep the cooler in a safer place :)  An even safer option would be a chargecooler style system but that's maybe getting a bit OTT haha)  

Nice topic :)

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Internal ducting is tad more complicated than that, obe! See: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iiGRCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA538&dq=Joseph+Katz+cooling+ducts&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj65vnolMHbAhXDccAKHYWNAigQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=Joseph Katz cooling ducts&f=false  and his "Race Car Aerodynamics" ffor more detail.

A high pressure frontal point, yes, but an opening that is right at one speed will be too big at a higher one when it will take too much air causing the flow to stall, and will be too small at low speed.    And convoluted hoses, however wide, are much narrower than they appear, thanks to the destruction of any boundary layer by the ribbed internal wall.   Better to duct in smooth wall tubing or fabricate in alloy sheet, and if for road use, a fan is needed for very slow travel.     

Your other point, about a charge cooler is even more important.     Optimal mixture is just over 14:1, air to fuel, BY WEIGHT.     

The Specific Heat Capacity (Cv) air at 0°C and 1 bar:  0.7171 kJ/kgK

The Specific Heat Capacity of petroleum is 2.13 kJ/KgK.

So heated petrol will carry three times as much heat into the mixture as the air, but as there is fourteen times less petrol, this effect is minimised.    Cooling the air, or ensuring that air as cool as possible is entrained is five times more effective than cooling the fuel, and avoids the risk of placing a fuel radiator in harms way.   An air intake should come from outside the engine compartment, which is full of hot air that has passed through the water radiator.

Last weekend, when I came off at Oulton, I ended at high speed in a gravel trap, thank goodness, else it would have been a barrier.    The gravel forced my low slung oil cooler back into the chassis rails, puncturing it, and the decceleration in the gravel was not enough to trigger the impact switch.    A fuel cooler would have spewed all over the frornt of the car, until I turned it off, with obvious risk of disaster.

John

 

 

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Always like the fuel cooling system on the XJS,  return was via an AC/return pipe heat exchanger (neat device about 1.5" dia by 6" long) but the return pipe didn't go back to the tank but went to a large swirl/mixing tank in the boot that the pump fed from, as the swirl  pot was depleted it was topped up from the main tank, but no return fuel went into the main tank, so it didn't get slowly heated.  I know (none?) of us run aircon, but if the XJS style heat exchanger could be fed by a cooled water supply it could be mounted anywhere safe.

Alan

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