Megasquirt 2 On Triumph Tr6 With 6 Throttle Bodies

[josh18]

Thanks a lot guys! I have a bit to do to it before I get to that stage but from what Ive read it sounds entirely do-able. I like the idea of being able to do it in stages, and get my head right round each step along the way.

Thanks

Josh

[Triumph-V8]

Would recommend that first step is to buy the MS and solder together

and let it run on the desk with the simulator (stim)

 

Second step could be the fitting into the car and let it run hooked up

and watch the result on the laptop.

 

Third step could be the iginition like described above.

 

Advantage is that you can first feel confident with the electronic system

and will than be able to spend more effort to build up a sweet manifold,

where all the precision and sweat invested will pay back with better

engine behaviour and easier setup.

[cdn12345]

as somebody who is about 3/4 of the way through this project on both pi and tr6 it is well worth the learning curve, for what its worth the members on this forum will no doubt help if you are brave enough to try and learn.

[josh18]

Thanks a lot for the assistance so far guys

Cheers

Josh

[toofast2race]

Happy to assist with Megasquirt build - mostly detailed on my blog - tuning is relatively easy if you have full ignition and fuel control and a wideband O2 sensor

[stitchit]

Hi Nick,

Sorry I have not been in touch, I am based in Canberra, Australia. Have not had ahuge amount of time this year, work does get in the way! I have a PI head with early throttlebodies, additionally I have puchased the Goodparts GP2cam and ceramic extractors. InitiLlly triedto fit the prestige underslung injection linkage but it fouls theexhaust, so currently working on a top webber based linkage with bearings on the shafts.

 

Electronics wise I am still undecided but looking hard at Emeralds system as they have done a number of TR6 EFI Installs. I thought I would do the ignition first then the fuel.

Regards,

Greg

[roulli]

Hi,

 

I’m in the process of gathering parts to convert from triple Webers to EFI.

I’d like to use the original PI manifolds with their individual throttle plates, as outlined in this thread.

In order to move on with the spindle adaptation, I need to know, which TPS has finally proven a good choice? -  knowing that:

•  there are place constraints, due to the brass idle valve
• A high resolution at low throttle openings is most probably a requirement

I noticed that the standard linear Bosch TPS on my DCOE Weber (--> mapped ignition) suffers from unstable readings around 0°. 

and don't want to carry over the Bosch TPS.

So the question is, if good TPS resolution is feasible with a linear TPS. If yes which type/ source?

 

A 2-slope TPS should actually improve things, but I’m only aware of two product lines:

• The old Weber PF09 used on some Ducatis, Cossworth, Fiat coupe 16V.  I’m afraid this hand-palm sized monster might collide with the idle valve on the Triumph manifold.
• The Magneti Marelli PF3C or PF4C used on some Ducatis,  MotoGuzzis and Harley D. Electras. These are normal sized, but rare and expensive, if they turn up for sale.

 (I don’t actually fancy the solution to hook up the TPS to the throttle linkage.)

 

Thanks for sharing

Cheers,

 Patrick

[Triumph-V8]

Do not try to invent the wheel again.

This item works properly and is cheap:

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/SENSOR-DROSSELKLAPPENSTELLUNG-DROSSELKLAPPEN-POTI-SEAT-/321489846463?pt=DE_Autoteile&fits=Make%3AVW&hash=item4ada49c0bf

 

Most of the trouble comes from play in the spindles,

also the pulsations open and close the throttle plates

and if play is in the linkage the reading becomes unstable, too.

 

If you aim for a more sensitive poti what is availiable from BMW bikes

you will immediately run into new trouble because it detects much more

of that nonsense. On the final there is no improvement.

 

As Harry said the poti must be mounted in proper angle to react from beginning

and still has some space at full throttle. It has angles to move but at start and end

it moves without changing resistance. That is the only thing you need to know

to avoid unnecessary trouble.

 

As you will do normally do Speed-density that poti does not do much harm.

The poti is only for accel fuel and that can be made as less sensitive

as required and when the engine is setup properly you can go

and find a good mix between no engagement during normal drive

and crispy response when opening up.

[roulli]

Hi Andreas,

 

thanks a lot for that info. Great help to prevent me re-inventing  TPS  noise amplification

 

 

TPS is ordered along with 5l of WD40...to justify shipping costs to Luxbg.

 

Cheers

Patrick

[GT6 Nick]

Hi Patrick,

Have you considered using a manifold air pressure sensor as well? A lot of your driving will be with a light throttle, where the TPS will only be reading a small percentage of its range. In those situations, a MAP sensor will provide more accurate information for the megasquirt to determine the actual load on the engine, and it's fuelling requirements. The TPS will be more useful at wider throttle openings, where the change in manifold pressure is less. I think you can program the brain so that it relies on the different sensors at different times. That's what I'm planning to do.

 

Nick M

[roulli]

Hi Nick,

 

Yes, I'm with you.

It was also not my intention to go alpha N.

I just want to avoid from scratch potential TPS problems, that have been outlined earlier in this thread.

 

I think Andreas' advice above  points clearly out, where to put the focus on.

 

Patrick

[roulli]

Some time went down the drain since I last posted about my intention to megasquirt my “webbered†TR6 with the original PI manifolds and 6 butterflies.

 

I had first to tame the vibrations of my Herald, who suffered actually from a bad J-type OD...

 

I gathered all the bits by now , with the exception of the throttle linkage/cable.

 

Great thanks to Andreas V8 and Harry Oviwan, who were finally the motivating moment for me, in this project.

At one point of time I struggled to find locally someone who’d machine the PI manifolds for ball bearings. Three shops claimed, they wouldn’t dare to mill the holes for the bearings, because the manifold is too difficult to clamp into the vice… At the end Andreas offered to machine my manifolds. He did a great job,  the spindles sit rather tight in the bearings but they turn very lightly.

 

Only the manifold for cylinder 1&2 received 2 bearings, as it has an elongated spindle for the TPS sensor.

The other 2 manifolds received only a bearing on the lever side, as the plugged side is airtight and didn’t have any play. The plugged side is hardly stressed.

It has been reported that other manifolds have been successfully upgraded with one bearing only.

 

Technical details:

Plumbing:

1. Standard fuel tank with 8mm outlet
2. Tap
3. Pre filter (usual barbed glas type)
4. Pre pump from Huco (carry over from Webers)
5. Swirlpot (transformed CAV filter)
6. Bosch HP pump (100l/h & lowest current consumption)
7. Knecht KL5 HP filter

(1 – 6 mounted on alu. plate, fixed via silentblocks outside of spare wheel well)

1. 8mm steel pipes between rear and front
2. fuel rail (braised out of 2 SAAB 900 fuel rails)
3. Bosch injectors Opel/Saab V6 refurbished by Mr injector
4. Bosch fuel regulator (Saab 900 or 9000)
5. Back to Swirlpot
6. Overflow PTFE tube to fuel tank to avoid fuel smell
7. Black Fittings from Torques UK

 

Upcoming I will check if the pre pump will flow as much fuel as the HP pump.

The UMC1 ECU is fixed under the dashboard; the Megajolt and Edis Module have been removed. First step will be, to use the ECU for spark only. The Edis coil pack will be directly driven by the ECU. If successful, the fuelling will follow…

 

Cheers

Patrick

[triumphlux]

This thread needs pictures ;-)

[Triumph-V8]

Congratulations Patrick!

Happy to read that you are satisfied with what I did.

Hope to see some pictures, too.

 

Good luck with the first steps to start with the ignition!

[oviwan]

hi,

 

it seems that anybody else is much faster in conversion his tr6. due to lack of time i managed only to install the new aluminium fuel cell in my car. already connected to the return line an fuel supply temporary to the carb fuel pump. still need to build the new fuel pump mounting. due to project business in austria, there will be no time to get any of my own projects finished this year...

 

go patrick, go!

 

cheers,

 

harry

Edited August 9, 2015 by oviwan

[roulli]

This is the tailored alu plate that will be mounted via silent blocks outside of the spare wheel well (above the chassis beam)

Everything will be mounted out of the trunk, to avoid fuel smells and to improve the cooling of the HP pump and the swirl pot.

 

The low pressure pump will be protected behind the swirl pot.

The finalKL5 HP filter is not mounted yet.

 

 

 

Test installation out of the car. Picture shows also the silver soldered fuel rail. At the end it wasn't really cheaper (100,-EUR) than using a extruded Ross aluminum rail, but it might look more authentic in a classic car, after it will have been zinc plated again, or painted in a silver color  

 

 

This is the UMC1, which is so small it can be mounted below the steering column. See the pedals below for orientation...

It comes with MAP sensor, 3 coil drivers, 2 injection drivers, one 5A PWM valve driver, one configuration switch input

 

 

Elongated CP spindle, (with 2 sealed ball bearings that you have to imagine or scroll up to look at Andreas' pictures) and bracket for TPS

 

 

TPS installed

 

2 pin PWM-valve for the idle control ex Saab 9000, that will probably be used in a third phase, after VE tables will be settled

 

 

 

That's it for the moment .  I'm currently pulling all the electric cables, and after having crimped a zillion of connectors under the dashboard I will most probably end up as a myopic yoga guru

 

 

Patrick

[roulli]

I didn't expect this project to take so long until I see the end of the tunnel. Details can be so time consuming, but that's nothing new.

Plumbing seems to work

Overslung throttle linkage, seems to work, hopefully with enough progression.

Only a few connectors to be crimped...

 

WIth some luck I might be able to fire it up before the end of the year, or at least try to.

 

I^ve been googling to find out how to wire the injectors of a straight 6 to the 2 banks provided by megasquirt, but I could find anything.

 

So I ask the question here, how should the injectors be wired?

Also does it make sense that I base my initial map on an existing fuel map from another 2.5  Efi user, or should I start from scrap?

Should the throttle plates be completely closed, or set slightly open with a gauge?

The 2-contact Idle valve is not supposed to be added immediatly, only at a later stage of tuning, correct?

 

Cheers

Patrick

[Triumph-V8]

I connected the first three and the last three cylinders to one bank

and gave the MS three shots per cycle.

I had a slight impression that idle was a very little bit better with that.

 

Start with a working setup because there are many switches hidden

that must be set properly anyway.

 

Throttle plates are fully closed at idle but you will need a little more air

when starting from cold.

The idle switch you have might be a bit coarse when fully opened.

 

Keep in mind that you have a function to wet the manifolds when cold.

(Priming pulse) They may flood the engine when set high and starter is

engaged more often because each time MS starts an extra fuel is injected.

 

Starting is mainly metered by the cranking fuel curve, not the map.

So that figure of amount and temp should be in limits and than the

required fuel time can be changed to suit.

 

Start a log just at first start to see what the injector firing time is

and whats going on with the triggering! We played around for hours

because I believed a friend to connect the MS to a switch that powers

when starter is pulling but than noticed he took the radio switch that

cuts off and MS only gave some cuffing from the priming pulses.

 

Never will I fire up without logging!

 

Good luck, its easy!

[roulli]

Thanks a lot for your advice

I'll use the data logging from the first second on then and switch of the priming pulse if it won't fire after a few trials.

 

I'll use the original brass valve at the front manifold  to set idle initially.

Later on I intend to  feed the manifolds from the front and the rear with air controled by the 2 wire Bosch idle controle valve, in order to avoid the enrichement of the rear cylinders.

[Triumph-V8]

I found it not necessary to have a second idle setup at the rear but the plug

there is a nice spot to work on the cold start idle air valve feed.

 

You could drive the plug out, make a M16x1,5 thread instead and fit

a banyo bolt from oil cooler. It provides 1/2" tube connection, perfect

size for the cold start air supply.

[Nick Jones]

I connected my injectors alternately 136 and 245 to give the most even pull on the fuel rail.  Two pulses per cycle.

 

You are welcome to a copy of one of my configs, but may not be possible to load directly dependent on firmware/version.  It is not a bad thing to go through the basic settings manually in any case as it seems that no two cars ever have all the same parameters........  Do you have Tuner Studio?

 

We await the video 

 

Nick

[spitfire6]

*************Electronics wise I am still undecided but looking hard at Emeralds system as they have done a number of TR6 EFI Installs.**********

Regards,

Greg

Most informative postings and glad I read it all.

I only started reading because of the comment above. Are there TR6 owners out there with Emerald K3?

Wish I had gone M-Squirt!

 

Cheers,

Iain.

[Nick Jones]

There are TR6's out there with Emerald ECUs.  There are also TR6's out there with Megasquirt.

 

TBH there is alot of choice now.  VEMs is another tempting one.  Good features and reasonably priced.

 

For me one of the main requirements would be that there is good cheap/free (or included) software for tuning and analysis.  Do you have or can you get software to talk to and tune your ECU?

 

Nick

[spitfire6]

Hi Nick,

I have the software and have the car idling quite good. Cold and hot start need better. MPG is crap.

I really wanted Compomotive as it had the blend algorithm for fuel load.

 

Would love to see some other K3 maps.

 

Cheers,

Iain.

[Triumph-V8]

 I could read quite often that people rely on other tune files

and to be honest I too like to get a setup not to start from scratch.

 

But the main advantage is that we can tune very easy most of the metering details.

It is some work to fully understand but it is a great advantage to do tuning later.

 

I found out that very similar engines require quite different setups.

 

So one advantage of Megasquirt is the fair price of the smaller items like MS1 & MS2

and the chance to get good support from the forum. The MS1 with 2.2 board in my opinion

still is sufficient for a nice Triumph TR6 and costs about 170 USD......

 

There are clones from MS that work the same and other systems like Emerald and Trijekt

that also do an excellent metering job. No need to swap from that view.

 

Difference is the tuning software and visualization and logging what the engine is doing.

The B&G software was okay, the next step much better but the TunerStudio is the real

step forward for a real time visualization of engine and logging all data.

 

If all works fine (what seldom happens) it is hidden what the software can do but if you have

a nasty problem the software can really help to identify and cure.