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On 6/26/2019 at 7:35 PM, rogerguzzi said:

I have found the oiler kit I think I was told it came off a Vitesse(well that's why I bought it) but to be honest if I get the Vitesse going this year I do not think I will fit this kit as it is only a road car for the Memsahib to drive!

Here are are a couple photos the oil filter thread is 3/4" UNF 

Roger thanks for this.........  Might be interested in all parts except the actual cooler.  I'm totally paranoid about used coolers after a good friend had a very bad experience with trash from a used cooler killing a freshly built engine.  He though he'd flushed it through too.......

Accepting that track days are going to be few and far between, I'm still gathering road-use data to try to judge whether the additional clutter and leakage risk of the external pipework etc is justified......

Martin, That looks about as tidy as it can be, but can't quite see whether  you have the side panel fitted?

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Interesting that a Vitesse gets its oil at least 10deg hotter than a 2000 saloon - my oil struggle to get over 90deg even after all day on the Nullabor at about 80mph. Max I saw after 6 hard laps at Mallala SA was 120deg and it rapidly cooled down- if anything the oil doesn’t reach even 80deg on the open road driven to speed limits - it warms up in traffic ( less air flow?) to the same as water temp ~ 85deg. I concluded it didn’t need or warrant a cooler (unlike a 2500) 

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2 hours ago, toofast2race said:

Interesting that a Vitesse gets its oil at least 10deg hotter than a 2000 saloon - my oil struggle to get over 90deg even after all day on the Nullabor at about 80mph.

That’s impressive. 

The hottest I have ever been was crossing the Nullabor during the day in 1989 in my ‘73 ford falcon no aircon it was hotter with the window open!! Car did better than me tho. 

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Andy, your comment maybe reopens my wondering about the possibility of my over-baffled sump influencing things, though the way the temperature trends (in both directions) doesn’t seem to reflect this.

Another possibility is that oil temp is affected by the way that the sump is tucked up tight behind the front X-member and between the rails, largely shielded from airflow and tight up against the 3-1 exhaust collector. 

Certainly the temp rises rapidly when operating largely at full chat between 4.5 and 6k, but does come down quite swiftly when you back off. I’ve yet to see a road temperature over 100C, but I haven’t done any long fast runs yet.......  The A303 and M5 are rarely as hot as the Nullabor though a good deal more congested.

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I have thought about welding tubes through the sump front to rear to try get air through the sump to cool oil but if it was that simple then it would have been done years ago.

Obviously only any good when air is moving through tubes and as Nick states the sump is tucked up tight behind the cross member.

 

Adrian

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ahebron,

That only slghtly raises the surface area of the sump, to promote heat loss,     Kastner widened the sump base, without lowering it, with the same intent, increasing the sump capacity as well, when tubes would lessen it.        Surface area is the solution, and the greatest surface area comes with an oil to air cooler.  Kastner was limited by race regulations that forbade coolers - I pesume you are not?

JOhn

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1 hour ago, ahebron said:

I have thought about welding tubes through the sump front to rear to try get air through the sump to cool oil but if it was that simple then it would have been done years ago.

Obviously only any good when air is moving through tubes and as Nick states the sump is tucked up tight behind the cross member.

 

Adrian

A couple of mates did this quite some years ago including putting tubes through the crossmembers. It did work but overly complex to do.

Laurence

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Chris and I were kicking ideas around involving a simple steel sheet tacked to the raised ribs on the bottom of the sump with a shallow  scoop at the front to capture the airflow passing under the cross-member - like a Landrover tropical roof upside down.

Reckon it would help but slightly concerned about the increased potential for damage from speed bumps and road debris though

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dont tack take a leaf out of the book people with real heat problems use

 

https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-hardware/cooling-air/cpu-thermal-paste-pads

2kg tub at £2.39 looks good value 

find some thinish ribbed alloy sheet and you can do front of sump, back face and LH side, also do bottom if you accept the occasional loss, heat soak away from bottom with pastewould be mega compared with a few weld points as you would have 100% contact.

maybe worth looking at pc components for the ribbed alloy, they come in standard sizes and must be produced in the millions and you could cut and apply as and where.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_grease

although called grease it sticks like ...........

alan

Edited by oldtuckunder

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"Thermal paste" would be useless in this situtaion.    It is used in electronics to eliminate air gaps, because still air is a good insulator.    That's why a duvet is cosy, so is a jersey, and insulation foam is full of air bubbles.

The need here is to promote heat loss to air.      The physics of heat transport are Conduction, Convection and Radiation.     The last increases exponentailly with temperature, until you can feel a red hot iron's heat on your face, or get burnt by the Sun, but we are not talking that sort of heat.    Conduction is what thermal paste does, but we need to get the heat out into the air, not into another bit of kit.     That's a difficult task, but CONVECTION is your friend;   it's the transport of heat by a moving fluid, such as water in a central heating system, but in this case, air is the fluid. 

Calculating the demand for air flow is difficult, I won't even try, but as Nick knows, getting as much air as possible flowing over the surface to be cooled  is the best idea.   You can always block some off if it's too much!   But then as I said above, increasing the area to be cooled is the next thing, and you will never, ever get as much surface by tubes, plates or ribbing as you can with a well installed oil cooler.    Why is this not an option?

John

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hi john you seem to have missed the ribbed alloy fins in my above to greatly increase the surface area exposed to the air. the paste promotes the conduction between the sump metal surface and the finned alloy which is exposed to the air on the surface of the sump pan, just look at those very expensive cast alloy sumps with extra  fins on i'll bet a bunch of cheap heat sink blocks would have way more surface area in the air stream than a couple of extra cosmetic fins on an alloy sump. . if you doubt the principal pull the covers of an old desk top pc and you will find a finned alloy pad of a few inches square stuck on the cpu with thermal paste exposed to the airflow from a small fan, and they do a remarkably good job of CONDUCTING  heat away from the CPU into the air

alan

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3 hours ago, JohnD said:

and you will never, ever get as much surface by tubes, plates or ribbing as you can with a well installed oil cooler.    Why is this not an option?

i don't think anyone has said its not an option, and i use an oil/water heater exchanger which works very well but is slightly more plumbing. but it is always interesting looking at other posible options to achieve a result, and on the efficiency of fins take a quick look at the average air cooled motor cycle engine, you don't need a huge amount of fin to get rid of quite a lot of heat.

alan 

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On the finned idea, you used to he able (still can?) Get a finned alloy tube thingy to fit around the oil filter. Probably junk?

I quite like the idea of finned heat sinks on a sump. And in some ways I feel I ought to see what oil temps are doing in my car, but so far I have resisted any worry gauges except fuel and water temp ( and that is an oddball, as I am using the ford sensor... I wonder if the triumph thread is the same...)

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OTU,

Cylinders run a LOT hotter than oil, so the fins can lose more heat, from the greater temperature differential, and on a bike they have a large airflow across them.    Enclosed air-cooled engined need LARGE air fans to reproduce this flow - look at any Beetle!   Ditto for finned oil filters - you could do with some Thermal paste between the filter and the finned collar, but what will keep that in place?      Oil/water coolers are a definite option - Silverback had one!

zetec, VDO do a dipstick that has a sensor in the tip - it's also for Beetles!

OK, an oil cooler IS an option - and a damn sight better one than the Heath Robinson tubes through the sump and wind catchers under the front cross member!

John

 

Edited by JohnD

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19 minutes ago, JohnD said:

OTU,

 

OK, an oil cooler IS an option - and a damn sight better one than the Heath Robinson tubes through the sump and wind catchers under the front cross member!

John

 

i agree, but with an oil temp gauge fitted  so results can be measured and about £20 worth of materials that don't need to be permanently fixed or require mods to the original components i'd probably waste a couple of hours experimenting. probably been one of my life flaws, wondering "what if"

alan

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21 minutes ago, oldtuckunder said:

probably been one of my life flaws, wondering "what if"

alan

Not a flaw Alan !

us mere mortals ride on the coat tails of those that thought 

“What if.....”

 

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Water/oil heat exchanger is the holy grail technically.......  and I did mention it earlier.  Packaging-wise it's a bit of a ball-ache on a Vitesse/any Triumph 6 as it involves  significant oil and water pipework.  It also has the effect of dumping the excess oil heat into the cooling system which isn't fat with spare capacity anyway.....

The plate on the bottom of the sump was intended less as a heat sink, more as a duct to direct a fast flow of air across the bottom of the sump.  Finned aluminium (large capacity?) sumps are available........

http://www.racetorations.co.uk/triumph-c56/other-triumphs-c10/other-triumphs-engine-c19/racetorations-alloy-finned-oil-sump-gt6-p415

......... but pricey!

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12 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Water/oil heat exchanger is the holy grail technically.......   it involves  significant oil and water pipework.  It also has the effect of dumping the excess oil heat into the cooling system which isn't fat with spare capacity anyway.....

Certainly did!

oil-water cooler.jpg

Radiator and fans.jpg

Edited by JohnD

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I run  Morris Garages Metro water / oil cooler that is a direct fitment to the spin off adaptor. This initially caused me BIG problems, destroyed 3 sets big end bearings then real nice early cress drilled crank. Problem was the cooler was robbing cool water from the back cylinders at high rpm (7000) on the track real bitch to diagnose coz as soon as rpm reduced back cylinders cooled again. Easy fix once I worked out the problem but costly and frustrating.

Laurence

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Where did you take the coolant flow from, Laurence?   I'm puzzled!  The main access to the water jacket is via the front of the head, under the thermostat. 

Was it from the insert between the two valves on No.6 cylinder, that feeds the heater, with a bypass going under the manifolds back to the water pump?    I have no heater in SofS, and made sure that the insert was connected to the bypass, as without it the rear two bores can over heat, so flow needs to be maintained from there, especially under competition stress.    Increasing that flow to an oil to water cooler won't rob the rear cylinders of cooling flow, it will increase the flow and heat removal, cooling the bores.

You can see above how I arranged the oil to water cooler on Silverback.    That used the full coolant flow, in series with the rear radiator, driven by an electric water pump, so no doubt of the flow and no engine speed variation.

JOhn

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not the clearest of images( the black foam box hiding some detail, it was a remote filter box from when i was playing with a solenoid valve driven from a map sensor to open a direct air supply into the inlet manifold post carbs when from data logging i could see that above 6.5k rpm was starting to get reduced map readings with rich afr's. i.e 1.5 carbs were a restriction. it worked!  but was a bit complex pipework and wiring wise, but if you had to run in a class that restricted choke/carb sizes to original it did work and neatly dodged the regs, as nobody had thought that anyone would open holes in the inlet manifold  to get more air/fuel in :yes:  then i bit the bullet  went modified class and fitted 1.75 carbs

ECVPAVpiping2.thumb.jpg.40216f8bf28cb8ede4edb6e79dfa7e75.jpg

but anyway back to the oil/water exchanger

i used an audi quatro one its above between the oil filter and the mocal remote filter head. oil feed/return comes from the adaptor plate down in bottom right, and coolant supply (pipes hidden by exchanger) takes the inlet/outlet pipes between the water pump housing and the inlet manifold(which happen to be the right bore to mate to the heat exchanger. works very well both warming oil up quicker and keeping it cooler.

 

alan

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, JohnD said:

Where did you take the coolant flow from, Laurence?   I'm puzzled!  The main access to the water jacket is via the front of the head, under the thermostat. 

I tapped into the pump housing on the LH side where cooled water enters the head / block. as you say just below the thermostat.

Laurence

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Weird!   You found that at high revs , the flow into the head became inadequate, because it was being diverted to your oil cooler?    That your take off was so close to the pump makes me wonder about cavitation at speed, or if he flow was somehow directed into your take-off by the pump.   But Nick knows about pumps - Nick?

Full flow might have been the answer, but Silverback had a similar problem.    On the road it was well cooled, but on the track regularly overheated.     If they had been available then, I'd have installed a more powerful electric water pump, than the 80L/min one it had.  They do 150L/min ones now!

John

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