Nicks Vitesse

[Mark]

Conundrums seems to be the name of the game. Rebuilding my Vitesse has been more of an endurance than pleasure at times, with the unforseen, unexpected consequences of what seems to be a simple job. Latest frustration is trying to get the hood frame and new soft top to sort of fit.

Another problem I had after fitting vented discs to the Vitesse and getting every thing centralised with some track rod end clearence, was the repro track rod rubber boot. It became a flying saucer disc shape when tighten up touching the disc. The early original clear rubber boots stayed the same diameter as the TRE, with a sleeve that tucked up into itself when tightened. Some later OE rubbers, overall smaller diameter, work but not ideal. 

Mark

[Hamish]

Do you guys have any pictures as to how you measure your camber and castor. 

I would like to do this on my TR3a if I modify the top wishbones to that of the later design 4a through 6. 

Ta

H

[JohnD]

Camber is easy - I suppose you refer to front camber?   But the same tool can be used on the back wheels too.

I'll post a short article about my DiY camber gauge on the "Technical Articles" forum.

See: http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/8316-measuring-camber-front-or-back/

 

JOhn

Edited March 17, 2019 by JohnD

[Nick Jones]

I have a simple MDF board cut to sit across the wheel rim with a dangly aluminium pointer and some measured markings.  Crude but effective.  For tracking I need an assistant and a tape measure and we simply measure point to point from a circumferential feature on the tyre in front and behind.

Both these seem very crude but in fact, if done carefully, they get results very comparable to £ 40ks worth of 4 wheel laser alignment kit.  We set the Spit up from scratch like this then got it done professionally.  The expensive machine showed we hit what we aimed for within pretty close tolerance and only thing changed was the front tracking and that was because the operator didn't approve of me setting it parallel......  Drives better parallel though and got changed back!

So, it's all back together and ready to go but I've not yet driven it.

This is the position of the joint at full bump or very close to it - clearance is fine.  Spacer and new nyloc fitted.

TRE clearance.....

LHS fully assembled

[Nick Jones]

So I did eventually get this back together.  One unexpected and not very welcome side-effect was that the suspension geometry was completely changed.  I was expecting the tracking to need doing, but I wasn't expecting to have to loose 1.5º additional negative camber per side too.

I have now got it back to more or less where it was before in terms of camber and toe, but still it doesn't drive as well as it did...... so I suppose I'll have to check out the caster as well.  Maybe do a few more miles first though as the new top balljoints were remarkably tight and may be partly responsible for the dead feeling in the straight-ahead position.  Only done about 100 miles so far.

Brake pedal is nice and high and firm though bite could be better.  This does seem to be improving as the pads get to know the discs better.  Using M1144s at present on the basis that the vented discs mean I won't cook them.....  Have some DS2500s in reserve.

[mpbarrett]

re top ball joint.

Some of the new ones I have had recently have been so tight that the steering became very heavy and as you said felt dead. This is on a Herald so should be light..
I brought a couple of greaseable joints from James Paddock which seem much better. Also something nice about have a grease nipple to grease when doing the servicing!

Mike

[Sprint95m]

2 hours ago, mpbarrett said:

re top ball joint.

Some of the new ones I have had recently have been so tight that the steering became very heavy and as you said felt dead. This is on a Herald so should be light..
I brought a couple of greaseable joints from James Paddock which seem much better. Also something nice about have a grease nipple to grease when doing the servicing!

Mike

This also affects Dolomites.

The OE Dolomite top joints had grease nipples but the aftermarket ones don't. (They OE joints are rebuildable.)
However, it is feasible to add a grease nipple, which improves the operation of the balljoint and extends it's lifetime too.

Ian.

[Nick Jones]

Thanks for this.  I have a bit of a collection of old joints, often with perished gaiters, so will have a proper look at the condition of these with a view to fitting grease nipples, flushing them through with fresh grease then fitting gaiters reclaimed from dead moderns which are made of real rubber.

 

[Nick Jones]

MoT due (yes, I believe in MoTs for ALL road going vehicles), so did the usual clean out and adjust of the rear brakes plus wound the handbrake up to the max.

The exhaust was blowing badly at the 3-1 joint (again!) so wasted an hour dragging the exhaust apart so I could reseal it (again). 

Now has new MoT, no advisories.

I finally got around to fitting the oil temperature sensor.  This replaces the plug in the  gallery between oil pump and filter so will see the actual circulating oil temperature.  This gallery plug sits right behind where my spin-on filter has been so I had to get a shorter oil filter in order to be able to rotate the whole assembly anticlockwise.  As usual, changing the oil filter made an unholy mess, which rotating the spin-on adaptor gleefully added to.

That's the messy bit done though - just need to mount the display and do a little wiring.  Have a display for the wideband too which will go in at the same time.

 

[gt64ever]

10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

I finally got around to fitting the oil temperature sensor

That's two more things to have to watch and worry about now !

Ian

[Nick Jones]

 

2 hours ago, gt64ever said:

That's two more things to have to watch and worry about now !

 True...….. but;

Oil temp gauge is to try to discover whether the rather poor oil pressure figures when hot and apparent rapid ageing of the oil (colour change) are caused by it getting cooked - probably as a result of a certain red monkey over-baffling the sump...…  I would just swap the sump, but it's a fairly non-trivial job on a 6 pot.  I may end up doing anyway of course, but at least I'll be sure why I'm doing it!

I always wanted an AFR gauge and have most of the hardware onboard already - just lacked a display

[gt64ever]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

I always wanted an AFR gauge and have most of the hardware onboard already - just lacked a display

I must admit this is on my radar as a tuning device as a lot of my set up is non-standard. Which make of AFR gauge have you gone for ?

My current tuning aids are research, plug/exhaust colour, absence or otherwise of lean hitching and mpg.

A future change away from K&Ns to a cold feed airbox will also require a re-evaluation.

Ian

[Nick Jones]

I've got an Innovate LC-1 on the Vitesse (had a similar one on the PI).  These comprise of the sensor and conditioning electronics but no display.  I avoided the display as they were (and still mostly are) remarkably expensive for what is a simple voltmeter, and I was connecting it to the MS ECU anyway to could read it via that with the laptop connected.

Periodically I get the urge for a permanent display to connect to spare analogue output and scour the web for a reasonably priced one.  Usually I fail, but at the end of last year I found one being sold by a tuning company in Queensland of all places and bought that.  Haven't tried connecting it yet...….

They are a useful tool.

[Nick Jones]

So...... a pic of the sensor in place

And the display in place too.  

Initially I thought the AFR display was working, even showing plausible numbers (and in fact it was), but the oil temp display was obstinately stuck on 40ºC. Then by the time it dawned on me that 40ºC is the minimum it shows (given away when it started going up from 40, no genius needed!), the AFR display had gone nuts and eventually refused to display anything but "10".  Dragged out the laptop and connected to MS, which was having the same problem, proving that the problem lay with the LC-1, not my new gauge.

There then followed a frustrating couple of hours rediscovering the wiring (not my best work) and the foibles of communicating directly with the LC-1 controller (unresolved, it refuses to talk to the laptop).  I then rediscovered the error-codes-via-blinking-LED game which gave "error 8" - roughly translating to "your sensor has lost it's marbles you can try re-calibrating but your're probably looking at a new one".  Re-calibration has to be done in "free air".  This means removing the sensor or waiting about a week for all fumes to clear.  Due to dubious design choices 15 years ago, sensor removal means tunnel removal, which means seat removal, and I wasn't up for that.  Therefore a possibly unusual technique was developed to "purge" the exhaust and allow in-situ calibration.  This involved turning the engine to TDC and removing plugs 1 & 6. I then gaffer taped my hot air gun (Boris the mendacious fatberg of dishonesty was unavailable) to the tailpipe and let it run on it's cold setting.  Hissing from plug 6 revealed it as the cylinder "on the rock" so I backed the crank a few degrees to open the exhaust valve further giving a satisfying flow of gas back through the plug hole.  Initially this smelt just like exhaust but after about 15 minutes it smelt more or less like air so I turned off the blower and took the LC-1 through it's full calibration procedure.  Happily this seems to have done the trick with plausible readings at both MS and display though with the display reading half a point leaner.  The two analogue outs may not be set the same...... but I can't get into the bloody thing to check......  At least it's doing something.

 

[Nick Jones]

It took me to work today.  About 18 miles of mixed A roads and lanes.  Max oil temperature was 90ºC just before arriving home after 5 fast-ish miles on the A303.  Certainly not as rampant a problem as I suspected.  Will get more thoroughly tested at Castle Coombe on Monday...... along with the vented discs......

AFR seems to be richer than I would choose, though I'm slightly doubtful about the calibration at present.  I also think at least one injector is leaking as when I pulled plugs 1 & 6  on Sunday, 1 looked nice and clean but 6 was very sooty (dry).  Injectors came from two different scrappers about 15 years ago and have had no maintenance apart from the occasional dose of injector cleaner.  They've done well enough!

[Nick Jones]

So today was trackday at Castle Coombe. 

A lone small-chassis Triumph in a sea of TRs and MGs.......

Somewhat exceptionally (for us) it wasn't raining.  Which was nice in a way, but possibly not so much appreciated by the car and, more especially, the tyres.....

The Falken SN832s are great in the wet, no question.  They are not so fond of dry though; they squealed alot and are showing signs of stress

Front left (clockwise track) - note roll of rubber at the bottom edge of the uppermost (outer) treadblock

And rear left........

We were trying, but may well have been the slowest car there, though not necessarily the slowest drivers as we did get past a few things!

With ambient in the low twenties C, my new oil temp gauge was interesting.....

We learned:
The warning light comes on at 120ºC.....
15 minutes of aggressive (sustained high rpms) will raise the temp from 76ºC to 134ºC
Even less aggressive (lower revs) soon gets into the 120s.
At public road speeds it's mostly in the 90s.

Tank average over 210 miles, 80 of which on the track, 26mpg......

[Martin]

Rubber getting hot is not unusual on the track, question is whether they slide or get sticky. Avon CR6 get sticky 

 

[Mark]

Hi Nick

Good to see your getting the Vitesse out on the track, something I want to do this year to give the car a shake down following the restoration. I will be fitting an oil cooler with thermostat, probably OTT but had one on a Spit 1500 years ago,  is this something you have considered.

[Nick Jones]

It’s something I’m considering now......!

[rogerguzzi]

6 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

It’s something I’m considering now......!

Hello Nick

                   I think I have one I bought a couple of years ago for the Vitesse but not fitted!

I will dig it out and take some photos if you are interested(it will be cheapish!)

[gt64ever]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 9:11 AM, gt64ever said:

On ‎6‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:11 PM, Nick Jones said:

I finally got around to fitting the oil temperature sensor

That's two more things to have to watch and worry about now !

I told you that you'd worry!

Ian

[Sprint95m]

On 6/25/2019 at 12:55 PM, Nick Jones said:

It’s something I’m considering now......!

T2000 specialist Chris Witor has written quite a bit on this subject,
engine oil temperature gets very high even though (water) coolant temperature stays stable.

He is an advocate of oil cooler installation as a preventative measure.

 

Ian.

[rogerguzzi]

On 6/25/2019 at 12:55 PM, Nick Jones said:

It’s something I’m considering now......!

Hello Nick

                   I have found the oiler kit I think I was told it came off a Vitesse(well that's why I bought it) but to be honest if I get the Vitesse going this year I do not think I will fit this kit as it is only a road car for the Memsahib to drive!

Here are are a couple photos the oil filter thread is 3/4" UNF 

Roger

ps pm me if you are interested(just realized the file size is large!)still it will be quality?

[Nick Jones]

3 hours ago, gt64ever said:

I told you that you'd worry!

Yeah...... but at 134ºC I probably should!  Though "normal" highway use doesn't seem to be a problem so far..........  I didn't even look at the AFR gauge - it was pulling hard through to the rev limiter.

An interesting detail is that there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation between oil temperature and idle oil pressure.  I haven't done any proper data collection but it appears that if thrashed up to an oil temperature of 90ºC, idle oil pressure at 800 rpm will be a about 15 psi.  However, if the oil temperature has cooled down to 90ºC after a period standing, the oil pressure on restart will be 25 psi at the same rpm.......  Temperature is measured after the oil pump exit, between relief valve and filter.

Idle oil pressure at 134ºC is not very much...... (but the light stays off)

1 hour ago, Sprint95m said:

He is an advocate of oil cooler installation as a preventative measure.

Yeah..... but a Vitesse underbonnet area isn't rich with potential locations....... I'd like a liquid/liquid one but that makes the external plumbing even worse and dumps more heat into the marginal cooling system.

[Martin]

With an oil cooler the GT6 engine stays below 120deg even after 6 laps of Nürburgring. Pressure 50psi running, 20 at idle.

As long as the pressure is okeyish I would not bother too much.

24h racing with a Polo in the eighties we had an oil temperature above 150deg all over the race (no idea on the exact temperature as the gauge ended at 150 ) but the pressure was 4-5 bar. No oil cooler allowed in that class. 

I mounted the oil cooler besides the water cooler in the Vitesse.

Cheers Martin