Jump to content

Nicks Vitesse


Recommended Posts

Tricky. I bought a tiny pair of quality 'Vice Grip' pliers (brand name) that really bite and don't twist off. I have use these end on to clamp to the end snapped bolts, screws, then grip these at the jaws with another pair to unscrew. Possibly heat thd spoke first. Problem is Alluminium/steel corroded together can be like a weld.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Prepared to put a bit of effort in to save it.  I will tidy it up too.  It's shamefully dirty.....  Quite like the core drill idea, though it doesn't immediately solve the problem as I can only go as far as the spoke.  But maybe I can also drill out a bolt to fit over the screw with some decent glue once the core drill has done it's work.  The screw can't be that tight, it's just that there is nothing to get a hold of. As the current screw is only about 3mm OD, if I'm cunning about the core drill I may be able to keep the hole small enough to just go up a screw size....... wishful thinking maybe.....

I've been variously told that it's a Les Leston aftermarket and that it was a (high priced) dealer option.  Possibly it came from a 948 coupe.  Not quite convinced on the Les Leston as the boss design seems very different.  Never seen another like it though - not even in a picture.

Nick

my thought was that if you open up the wood just enough to get round the screw with either a wee mole grip or a threaded sleeve and lock bolt.

IMG_20200706_0002.thumb.jpg.1bcc50b59185dfa7771aa9c74cb6441f.jpg

With a core cutter the inside of the hole in the wood will be a bit rough and not good enough to make a structural glued repair so once the bolt is out you can remove the spoke and clean up the hole with a high speed cutter bit (router bit in a drill would do). Bigger than the hole you have core drilled but smaller than the extent of the slot for the spoke.

Turn up a plug of wood to fit the hole snugly and glue in with the polyurethane glue - like the Pacman below. Then carve/sand the protruding bit to suit.

IMG_20200706_0001.thumb.jpg.35f187af15a8d17e32fb99a05d3e5665.jpg

If the screw is very seized in the spoke you can soak overnight with a few drops of phosphoric acid or even Coke at push (other carbonated vegetable flavour drinks are available) which will loosen things off.

Given what has happened with this screw I would be tempted to take all the screws out to check/replace as necessary.

Colin

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions.  Gives hope!

Drove the car to work today using a Mountney 14".  Strange.  Completely changes the feel of the car.  Not all bad either...…..  Slightly smaller diameter, much thicker rim, feels much more robust.  Not a nice looking thing though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 11:54 AM, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Given what has happened with this screw I would be tempted to take all the screws out to check/replace as necessary.

Already done.  One is perfect.  The other is quite corroded.  The corroded ones are the side ones, bottom one is good.  Presumably sweaty paws is the cause..... :blink:

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Already done.  One is perfect.  The other is quite corroded.  The corroded ones are the side ones, bottom one is good.  Presumably sweaty paws is the cause..... :blink:

Hello Nick

                 What you need is some nice string back gloves He He

Roger

ps or less salt in your diet!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

ps or less salt in your diet!

Nah.

I don't take any salt in my diet (as in added salt), and I can testify that my sweat still destroys metals! Actually, one of the main reasons I only buy plastic safety glasses these days!

I do like the steering wheel though, it is something similar to what I have been looking for to put on the saloon after the restoration. Now I have a name to aid the searches.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ohh, and with the screw, I am in the drilling camp.

Initially go for a small drill size (as in 1mm kind of size), hopefully just drilling down is enough. I find that this loosens the hold on "not so stubborn" threads and pair of grips (or if you have something, a very fine chisel/screwdriver or even a torx driver tapped into the drilled hole).

If that doesn't go, drill out to almost thread size, then use a tap to chase the remnants out the threads (might need to sacrifice a tap here, if the piece is shallow!!).

All requires a steady hand or pillar drill, and PROPER quality drill bits, but this is how I have removed various screws onboard (fortunately most of mine are usually grub screws with an Allen key head which makes drilling easier, but I have done this on standard machine screws as well).

That's my two-pennarth worth anyway,

Phol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just for amusement...… I found a nice wheel on the Nardi website.  They don't do anything so vulgar as prices listed so I have to wait for their (unnamed) local agent to quote me.  I'll make sure I'm sitting comfortably (or even fully horizontal) before opening that one.

Don't think drilling will work.  The screw is a rolled self-tapper and flippin' hard.  And the core diameter is ~ 2.5mm.  Roger's small end mill suggestion just might do it (though I'd probably have to buy one) but I'd much prefer not to go that way as the screw goes right through the aluminium spoke and on another 8mm or so into the wood the other side.

Toying with the idea of breaking out the jump leads and passing a (high) current through the joint to see if that will break the hold that the corrosion seems to have...…  Potentially a bit violent/uncontrolled :blink:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Nick

                  How about spark erosion ? or is this getting a bit silly?

Is it a priceless artefact? 

Roger

ps is it easy to fit a swing spring to a Vitesse and which spring? not sure I want the anti camber thing as I do not drive that hard (at my age! the old saying is the older I get the better I was!)and Spitty seems ok under normal fast ish driving!

But do you need to fit the longer drive shafts?

Plus I could sell the anti camber thing for the price of a spring!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Just caught up on quite a lot of work!

First off, big congrats to Chris on the dissertation. 85 is a stonking mark for university work (I don't know why they sandbag so much with the top marks, but they do). For reference, I got 79 in mine and that got published in a journal! Very, very well done. Look forward to reading it :)

Back on page 5 or so you mentioned having to turn the dampers up after fitting the trunnionless uprights and I think I know why. When I've been calculating spring rates and the like for mine, I've found that the trunnionless uprights move the lower pivot point out about 35mm. That changes the motion ratio quite significantly, from 0.56 to 0.44. To put that into perspective, to get the same wheel rate as 330lb springs on the trunnions you need 425lb ones for trunnionless! Same effect on damping. That could also affect your feeling of the rear being stiffer, as comparatively it would be. Small chassis Triumphs seem to major on front spring stiffness, so lowering that would make it more balanced (at the expense of more dive under braking).

While sorting out the Jag's paint around the brake master cylinder area I've discovered that, for all its sins, POR-15 seems to be impervious to brake fluid so I've painted it in that. Will report back once there's been enough of a long term test. Curious to see if your floor paint works too...

Lastly, I've always hated drilling out stuck bolts from softer materials. I think I'm in the try and find a good 2mm reverse drill camp. Not necessarily because I think it will work, but because you can try that first and then if it doesn't work you can hole saw around the outside. I think the latter is more likely to be successful, but hard to go back afterwards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting what you say about the trunnionless links and pivot points.... but....

......while I have no trouble believing the lower pivot point has moved (played merry hell with my hard-won suspension settings :mad:)....... 35mm??!!:blink: Can it really be that much? how do you figure it out? From the changes I had to make to the camber and toe settings I would guess in the region of 5mm.  

Appreciate that the trunnionless system makes the suspension pivot and lower steering pivot the same, whereas the OE arrangement has them separate and separated, which may account for the discrepancy in our numbers?  However, It didn’t noticeably change the ride height which it should have done if your numbers are right?

The damping change I put down to the trunnion-less joint having less friction.

The rear end thing.... I did the trunnionless conversion a while ago and have done several thousand miles with it before the structural mods. The ride change only occurred after the structural work.

More needed to convince me :smile:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting. I remember reading about estimating motion ratios and there's two main methods for double-wishbone suspension that use measuring of linkage lengths. Both of which are approximations as the actual maths is bloody complicated (and variable down to things like camber angle at the specific moment in time you're calculating at).

1. Take the whole suspension to be the lever, meaning that the outside pivot point is the centreline of the wheel.

2. Take the lower arm to be lever, meaning that the outside pivot is the joint with the suspension upright/vertical link.

The former is the more accurate approximation when the wheels are pointing dead ahead, and the latter is the more accurate approximation when the wheels are completely turned. The folks over at Physics Stack Exchange provided a helpful layman's explanation to this when I couldn't find a good explanation from automotive articles (too much shallow-depth rules of thumb with bugger all explanation). Here's the question: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/555191/where-is-leverage-calculated-from-in-jointed-system-car-wishbone-spring-rate-vs

Will re-run the maths with it using the first approximation where the longer lower arm length won't change a thing, then find out what number's in the middle (or maybe 3/4 of the way between as the steering angle is never particularly great in high-g corners.

Oh, and the 35mm difference is from the pivot point on the wishbone where the stock trunnion pivots up and down and the ball of the trunnionless upright. The red bit in this picture.

qf64aq2h3f8cx319ohfj.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

BiTurbo,

I don't doubt the difficulty of the calculation!

But I have been vastly impressed by what CAD can do.    Drawing the parts isn't simple, but it's straighforward, and then you can 'Assemble' them virtually,  and move them about!   That always freaks me, as they say!    I'm pretty sure that you could fix the turret in virtual space and then see the suspension move as the gods intended.    And measure the angles!

Not done it so can't swear on it.   I have made cardboard models and manipulated them to find what happens, that works.

JOhn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 8 months later...

Ah hah..... this is where this discussion is....

It wasn’t why I came here, but I’m pleased to see it as I’m now a believer - apologies to you Simon for my doubt!  I’d like to figure out how to address it properly because I really don’t like what it’s done to the car. I’m surprised it’s not been picked up elsewhere. I’m even more than half tempted to convert back to trunnions..... though all those components are now on the GT6.....

Anyway, may well kick off a new thread on it with chunks of Simon’s work copied over.

Meanwhile, just to observe that today my guilt was such that I exhumed the Vitesse from under piles of boxes and other random crap that has collected over the winter and cleared the floor under it. Then checked tyre pressures and fluids, connected the battery and turned the key. Fired up third compression stroke as always. The clutch wasn’t stuck and the brakes weren’t seized so I backed it out of the garage and took it to Ilminster so I could get bread for me and buy fuel for mower. The car got a top-up too. Weather brightened while I was out, so I even put the hood down for the return journey, taken on the A303 so I could give it a mild ragging and get the oil hot. Was a bit nippy at 70mph....

Then, as a special treat, an oil change. Have a guilty conscience about that too as I’m pretty sure it’s two years since the last one, so this oil has seen a (dry) track-day, a trip to Italy and Austria (loads of high passes, loads of autobahn) as well as plenty of random local stuff and last years Peaks trip.....

Yes, it was pretty black. I am naughty :sad:. The drain plug magnet was furrier that I like too. Mostly just fines, but a couple of bigger slivers too. 
Hoping the hot idle oil pressure is better for the change. It has been getting a bit grim, which I was blaming on the oil being very weary after being well cooked more than once.... if not I may have to consider that the oil pump might’ve had enough metal though it to spoil it. Suspect the metal is coming from the timing chain/tensioner.

Meanwhile, she’s running well enough and it seems unlikely there’ll be any continental travel this year :sad:

Just in case you’ve forgotten what it looks like....

888E9B4C-A637-4CB0-8B86-9B3D4545DD72.jpeg

A benefit of having had junk piled all over her is that she’s pretty clean compared the the GT6, which is covered in dust and spider crap.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

That's quite a big difference to the pivot position given the length of the Triumph wishbones. From memory I'm pretty sure the Caterham wishbones are quite a bit longer.

Yeah.......And the effect is that it’s gone (relatively) soft and rolly, with the hard-won sharp turn-in severely blunted. Turning the dampers up a few clicks does little to help. It’s not dreadful, but it’s not what it was.

Possibly upping the spring rate as Simon suggested early on to restore the original effective rate, but given that I have fixed spring seats and like the current ride height, that would involve messing with spacers or helper springs. 
 

Something else to consider is your turret mod Colin. See if both spring and damping rates can be won back with a more vertical position?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Nick

               Shame on you for not changing the LIFE BLOOD of the engine!!!!!

It is peanuts compared to an engine rebuild or even a touch up build!

I am going to change Spittys oil in the next few days ready for the 1st of April and it has only done about 1200 miles

There is penny pinching and PENNY pinching

That's you told off !

Roger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

I am going to change Spittys oil in the next few days ready for the 1st of April and it has only done about 1200 miles

Hear, hear :thumbsup:

10 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Yeah.......And the effect is that it’s gone (relatively) soft and rolly, with the hard-won sharp turn-in severely blunted. Turning the dampers up a few clicks does little to help. It’s not dreadful, but it’s not what it was.

Frustrating after all the effort. And quite remarkable how such apparently small differences in feel make such a difference to the pleasure of driving the car.

Hope you can come up with a solution as messing about with ride height on fixed dampers is a pain and I understand your wish to avoid the adjustable rate ones. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, rogerguzzi said:

             Shame on you for not changing the LIFE BLOOD of the engine!!!!!

Ah.... beat me some more.....:pinch:

In my defence (mitigation?)mileage on that fill was still under 5k, and it wasn’t cheap oil.

With the previous engine it was almost academic as it used to change its own...... I’d pour it in the top and it would disappear it, making room for me to pour more in the top...

1 hour ago, Escadrille Ecosse said:

Frustrating after all the effort. And quite remarkable how such apparently small differences in feel make such a difference to the pleasure of driving the car.

Hope you can come up with a solution as messing about with ride height on fixed dampers is a pain and I understand your wish to avoid the adjustable rate ones. 

Yep, after years of “development” I’d got as close as I reckon you can get to dialling out the worst of the effects of 200kg of cast iron up front.... Not quite to Herald standard, but very acceptable.  It’s a way away from that now although camber toe and caster did get put back to where they were (lot of adjustment needed).

Do you think the turret mod is a worthwhile direction?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Do you think the turret mod is a worthwhile direction?

That boat anchor up front is difficult to work round for sure.

The mod to the turrets is actually pretty simple to do. Think I did mine in a weekend. And it wouldn't take much more effort to keep the inner set of damper mounts if you wanted to revert. I did originally think of making a bolt on version but realised that this would be far more complicated to fabricate properly/safely.

On the Spitfire the initial turn in was already good and I was after getting more roll control through the turn without using the bigger ARB. I also wanted to reduce dive on braking, especially into corners as I felt this would help the swing axles cope better. It certainly helped both of those.

I always wanted to try it on the 6 cylinder Spitfire as that used to float and bottom badly at the front on high speed low frequency bumps which I put down to the falling rate. I also have the feeling that for a road car with it's longer stroke suspension the falling rate poses a bigger problem that on a lightweight race car with it's much reduced travel.

Thoughts anyway.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...