DaveNotSoSideways Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 This AN stuff is cheaper in the states, I was lucky I came by a bag of fittings on ebay for which basically sorted me out. You'll be tapping holes and adding adaptors everywhere before long! Much nicer when you can make the stuff entirely at home, to the exact right length etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Everyone seems to be fixated on using Aeroquip lines with fittings that are quoted in an obscure American notation (AN-3??????). Anyone done this with brake pipe and fittings? Seems to me no reason why not, and a darn sight cheaper. (Leon and SteveGT6 excused, as they live in the Former Colonies) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 Whilst I see John's perspective, AN is not particularly obscure in the USA, (which has a lot of vehicles). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN_thread In my extensive worldwide travels I have noticed that people who modify their Triumphs etc, generally use either what is to hand, or what is accessible at moderate cost. In the USA, AN is accessible at moderate cost. Thankfully the USA remains one of the last bastions of non-metrication, and 'standard' is basically 'imperial' I cannot say what a pleasure it is to be able to walk into any hardware store and buy tools in 'SAE' that fit our cars, or any FLAPS and buy 20W/50 off the shelf, although it is getting harder to find high ZDDP engine oil, GL-4 gear oil or good quality 13inch tyres here. No big thing as I am used to having order much of what I need for my weird little Triumph out here 'in the sticks'... Thank goodness for the postal service. UPS and Fedex! L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveNotSoSideways Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I make own brake lines it's all just -3 hose and -3 or AN3 fittings. Same thing you get from Aeroquip, Mocal, Goodridge, not all these are swaged, alot are reuseable fittings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 4, 2008 Author Share Posted November 4, 2008 I like reusable fittings, coz they are er, reusable! L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 To continue part of this thread, I attach a picture (hopefully) of my take on the "octopus". No return through filter, head feed blocked off internally so uses only the external feed. I used -4 size fittings for the main feeds. I will be doing more than 6000rpm for extended periods. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 5, 2008 Author Share Posted November 5, 2008 Nice work Gary, and great to see you on this forum! Lots of holes, threads, adaptors, connectors and braided hoses to play with! :-) I think I am going to be happy with just my extra one to the front for now. My fast road car almost certainly doesn't need that much help! Thanks again L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 8, 2008 Author Share Posted November 8, 2008 Just before I lose my broadband, sob > Here are some final piccys of the work I have done on this job. ie. making up my own aeroquip braided hoses with re-usable connections drilling and tapping my mocal angled oil adaptor to accept a 1/8th inch NPT to 3-AN adaptor and attaching the connector to it. Not quite finished in the photo, little bit of swarf still present. this is just the trial fitting. But it is progress... Best Regards to all for the help given. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 8, 2008 Author Share Posted November 8, 2008 more piccys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 8, 2008 Author Share Posted November 8, 2008 Last photo from him! This is inside the Mocal angled oil filter adaptor. You can see the end of the 1/8th" NPT to 3-AN adaptor and the bigger hole off to the side for the existing BSP fitting to the oil cooler. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 I want an X ray and electron microscrope sub molecular structure photo to be 100% sure... ??) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6 Mike Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Must have missed this thread, cant remember what these fittings were called but the plastic pipe is push fit into the fittings, if it's good enough for expensive development engines its good enough for me old Triumph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6 Mike Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 And another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 They're called Quik-Loks in the US and we use them all over machines for pnuematic connections. They don't give any trouble but I don't know if I'd be comfortable with my expensive engine oiled up with them. BUT, I've never tried and it's clearly working for you. Live and learn ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 That's normal goodridge stuff with olives and things, I even had them on my Bosch rolling road for raising and lowering the inter roller ramps with CA. Have you seen the REALLY kool ones used on single seaters? Click on - click off, lines for brakes and other hi pressure stuff...... Makes low pressure engine oil/CA look like silly boring stuff... I was impressed when I saw that.....I like gadgets.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 That's normal goodridge stuff with olives and things, I even had them on my Bosch rolling road for raising and lowering the inter roller ramps with CA. Have you seen the REALLY kool ones used on single seaters? Click on - click off, lines for brakes and other hi pressure stuff...... Makes low pressure engine oil/CA look like silly boring stuff... I was impressed when I saw that.....I like gadgets.. From the first pic it looks like quik-Loks. No olives, just push the poly tube in and it grips and seals. Push the outer ring in and it releases. Second pic is not so clear and could be anything. The quick release no bleed stuff as on the FF's is brutally expensive over here. I've looked at it time and again and the only place I've seen to benefit me (for the price) is the clutch slave. I just don't trust them to be bleed proof. The AN from Earl's and Goodridge is working for most of the connections. BTW, AN was developed in WW2 so that all Allied equipment could be readily interchanged. I would expect it to be as common in the UK as in the US as there was quite a bit of the US equpment and supplies sent over. Perhaps it is more common than you think under a different name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6 Mike Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 That's normal goodridge stuff with olives and things, I even had them on my Bosch rolling road for raising and lowering the inter roller ramps with CA. Have you seen the REALLY kool ones used on single seaters? Click on - click off, lines for brakes and other hi pressure stuff...... Makes low pressure engine oil/CA look like silly boring stuff... I was impressed when I saw that.....I like gadgets.. Both the same type fittings, work just as you describe above Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 No offence, but I don't care for plastic hoses, just a tad too vulnerable for my tastes, although I am sure it must work well enough in the short term. My personal philosophy is to 'do it once, and do it right', and I intend to keep my car for many years to come. My stuff came from Pegasus in Wisconsin. I read on the interweb somewhere that AN stands for 'Army Navy', which is of course, tosh, since it stands for 'Air Corp-Navy', it never ceases to amaze me how many folk out there pretend to know what they are talking about, but in actuality know very little! L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 The quick release no bleed stuff as on the FF's is brutally expensive over here. I've looked at it time and again and the only place I've seen to benefit me (for the price) is the clutch slave. I just don't trust them to be bleed proof. They are bleed proof. The main reason for such stuff is (obviously) on a single seater/rally car, you might have to rip out the engine or box/rear suspension between practice and a race or on a special stage Being able to detach stuff in a major hurry especially when you have sequential boxes & multi plate clutches all roasting hot, you need all the help you can get. Club racing cars don't need the stuff. Blow an engine or gearbox and you go home, although TBH I have seen people change a clutch or head gasket on Jags between practice and the race, but there you don't need to do even that if it's properly engineered anyhow. : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 I read on the interweb somewhere that AN stands for 'Army Navy', which is of course, tosh, since it stands for 'Air Corp-Navy', it never ceases to amaze me how many folk out there pretend to know what they are talking about, but in actuality know very little! L No offence, Leon, but be careful, acronyms mean what you want them to mean! Why is it not "A-CN" then? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6Steve Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Club racing cars don't need the stuff. Blow an engine or gearbox and you go home, although TBH I have seen people change a clutch or head gasket on Jags between practice and the race, but there you don't need to do even that if it's properly engineered anyhow. : Very smug dismissal Gareth, I guess you can go home when you break something but I've already proven I'll do what it takes to make the race. Two years ago I towed 1400 miles to race and broke the engine in first practice. It took all day Thursday to change the engine in the trailer at the track but we raced Friday Saturday and Sunday. ANY club racer is going to be compromised by thrashing parts well beyond their design limits. So if you're competitive you'll be breaking parts! Even your magical Jag is gonna break. And when it does you'll be thankful for the thought you put into fasteners and fittings to simplify repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 No offence, Leon, but be careful, acronyms mean what you want them to mean! Why is it not "A-CN" then? John No offence, John, you devils' advocate you, but surely acronyms mean what the original person(s) who came up with them intended them to mean? TTFN L ps. following further research I see that AN 'may' have originally meant Army Navy after all? the jury is out on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordleonusa Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Nope, it seems that Army Navy is a red herring, it is explained here: http://www.mechanicsupport.com/articleStronger.html Aircraft AN fittings "AN flare and 37 degree industrial flare function identically. In many cases they appear to be functionally interchangeable, but they are not" quote from Parker Aerospace Fitting Solutions Series No.11 Aircraft AN fittings are manufactured to MIL-F-5509 per AN (Air Force - Navy Aeronautical Standard) and AND (Air Force - Navy Aeronautical Design Standard). Industrial 37 degree flare fittings are manufactured to meet SAE J514/ISO-8434-2. Straight threads are per MIL-S-8879C now SAE-AS8879. The most notable difference between these standards are in the threads. AN fittings use a reduced root radius thread ("J" thread) and a tighter tolerance (Class 3) to achieve a 40% increase in fatigue strength and 10% increase in shear strength (thread tensile stress area of 110.76 compared to 103.20 mm2 ). This difference is stated in the thread designation, For example: AN Fitting: 1/2-20 UNJF-3B Industrial: 1/2-20 UNF-2B These two fittings function the same, they look the same, AND the industrial version is much less expensive to manufacturer. The problem is that the industrial version is 40% weaker. There is a an Airworthiness Directive (90-04-06) involving breaking of the aluminum propeller governor fitting on Lycoming engines. The aluminum AN fitting was used successfully for decades before they started breaking. The justice department brought charges against a company that was selling these fittings as AN when they were in fact industrial. Sometimes the higher strength serves an important purpose. Aircraft are vibrating structures, much more so than most industrial applications. Vibration fatigues the threads, so aircraft hardware uses a modified thread form and tighter tolerance to increase fatigue strength. This is true not only for AN fittings but also for AN and NAS bolts, and installed hose "B" nut fittings. These aircraft hardware items are also UNJF-3A/3B whereas the industrial is UNF-2A/B. How do you tell them apart? You cannot visually see a tolerance or an increased root radius. These are measured with special equipment. Some fittings sold as "AN" are industrial grade. What about AN marking? MIL-P-5509D requires that all flared tube fittings and nuts shall be marked with the letters AN or MS and the manufacturer's identification or trademark. Sleeves must be trademarked. Letters AN or MS on sleeves are optional. I have found fittings marked "AN" that do not meet AN tolerances (Class 2 instead of Class 3). Tapered Pipe Threads Tapered pipe threads for aerospace are ANPT whereas the commercial version of a tapered pipe thread is NPT. ANPT specifications, formerly MIL-P-7105B are now part of SAE AS571051. ANPT is essentially a NPT thread with extensive testing, gauging, sampling, NDT, and other quality control requirements. ANPT threads are required to meet two additional gauging methods, the L2 and the 6-step. Inspection MIL-F-5509D for flared aircraft fittings has extensive quality assurance provisions, including sampling for NDT tests, sampling for destructive tests, Lot identification, and Material Certification, Tensile strength tests, Finish tests. How can you protect yourself? Aircraft AN fitting is more expensive so it will not be the least expensive fitting. The least expensive fitting is almost guaranteed to be industrial. Instead of ordering "AN Fittings" - specify conformance to MIL-F-5509 or specify sizing to UNJF-3B/3A. Purchase from aircraft sources rather than sources that sell industrial/aircraft. What if it doesn't matter? It always matters if you order and pay for aircraft "AN" quality and standards and receive something inferior. If you don't need "AN" quality, and the industrial version suits your purpose, then fine. Order as a 37 degree (JIC) or Parker Triple-Lok. How to inspect? You can determine if a fitting is an AN fitting and not industrial by seeing if it meets Class 3 (aerospace) size tolerance. Measure the pitch diameter using a thread micrometer. The pitch diameter determines whether the part meets Class 3A (aerospace) or 2A (commercial). An adequate thread micrometer costs approximately $150.00. In one batch of 20 AN nipples that I inspected, only 50% were Class 3! Sorry I asked, or was it John? L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 (eek) we surrender...... (where's the white flag smiley?) Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 No offence, John, you devils' advocate you, but surely acronyms mean what the original person(s) who came up with them intended them to mean? TTFN L "acronyms mean what the original person(s) who came up with them intended them to mean?" EXACTLY! EG: The Online Dictionary has ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY TWO meanings for "CMC". "Colour Me Confused" indeed! http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/Color+Me+Confused But I think you win this one, with your overwhelming definition of "AN"! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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