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Triumph 1300 Megasquirt Setup


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#1 Tryumph

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Posted 29 July 2017 - 09:09 PM

I am new to this forum so please excuse me in advance if the information I'm asking for was posted earlier.

Have just gotten MegaSquirt working on a newly rebuilt 1300 in a Triumph Spitfire and am looking for Ignition, AFR, VE tables and any other useful settings to get me off to a good start on tuning it. Here are the engine specifics:

 

  • 9:1 Compression
  • 22/70/62/28 Piper HR270/2 "Fast Road" Cam - Inlet lift = 0.415", Exhaust Lift = 0.400"
  • Throttle Body from a Chrysler 2.5 liter (will convert to multiport later)
  • 2 to 2 to 4 exhaust manifold
  • EDIS 4 Ignition with 36 Tooth Wheel on the Crank
  • Roller Rockers
  • Narrow Band O2 (will install wideband 14Point2 Spartan 2 as soon as I get the car running)

Thank you for any tunes, tables, or insight you can provide to get me!

 

Kurt, Texas USA



#2 Nick Jones

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Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:19 PM

Hi Kurt,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Can I suggest that you please start a new thread for this question in the "Ignition, ECU and fuel injection" section and maybe post a few pics as well.  Also please tell us which version of Megasquirt you have and also the firmware version if possible.

 

Nick


Edited by GT6MK3, 31 July 2017 - 07:42 AM.
Sorted. C.T.


#3 Triumph-V8

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 06:55 AM

Welcome to the Forum.

Would suggest to start with the wideband right now

because the setting and also the whole AFR table idea

is based on a wideband.



#4 Tryumph

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 01:33 PM

Thank you for creating a new thread for me.

 

I'm using MegaSquirt MS/2Extra release 3.3.1 20131206 18:45GMT

 

TunerStudio MSv3.0.22

 

I know there is a later firmware update and have ordered a RS232-USB interface that will allow me to install this. My current interface works fine but for some reason will not allow the firmware update to complete.

 

I've just repaired a failed head gasket and cracked piston in my 1300 which put water in the oil and oil in the water. So I want to put about 500 miles on the car to clean out all the residue in the system before swapping my narrowband for the broadband O2 sensor.

 

What I'm looking for is just some "Close" enough timing, VE, AFR tables to get the car running good enough to put 500 miles on it.

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  • IMG_3031.JPG


#5 GT6MK3

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:18 PM

If it's repaired, it won't hurt a wideband.  And new sensor are much cheaper than new pistons (and they just screw in.)

 

Wideband - cheap, easy, convenient, self tune.  Narrowband - hard, cheaper riskier.

 

Nick's a well known skinflint, and he's advising how to save money and risk with a wideband...

 

I'd buy one.

 

C.



#6 Nick Jones

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:22 PM

 

Nick's a well known skinflint,

 

C.

True I'm afraid.

 

I agree with everything else Craig said too.

 

Have you actually had it running yet?

 

As I remember, when I did my first one it fired right up using the default fuel map that came with the firmware - which was for a smallblock Chevy.  Obviously I had to manually make the basic settings (no of cylinders, required fuel setting, injector firing cycle, ignition settings and so on) but the actual maps were enough to run it, even drive it.  The maps I posted will definitely make it driveable provided the basic settings, especially the "required fuel" are something like right.  May not run great though and I'd take it very steady and stay away big throttle in combination with high rpm.

 

I'd strongly recommend checking the timing is where the computer says it is using a strobe light.  Recommended procedure is to run it with the SAW signal to the EDIS disconnected so it runs in limp home mode and strobe that.  You should get a fixed 10ยบ BTDC which proves the timing wheel and  sensor are in the right relative positions.  This check is important as the ECU is basing everything on this and if it's out, everything is offset. Then reconnect and make sure it moves around roughly as the map directs.  Fuel wise, you can use the "required fuel" number to offset the whole fuel map richer or leaner.  Note that when calculating the required fuel you'll need to know what the injector flow rates are at the fuel pressure you are actually using.

 

Hope this helps

 

Nick



#7 Tryumph

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:53 AM

Thank you for all the input.

  • Yes, it is already running but needs more improved timing.
  • Yes, the base timing is set and confirmed with strobe timing light that it agrees with MS Timing Table.
  • When it was running earlier it was way too rich but it ran OK. Because this was a brand new motor I took about 500 miles to break it in then took the 1st road trip when the head gasket blew the fire ring into the cylinder and beat up cylinder #4 (photos)
  • I have already loaded in the correct throttle body injector data and corrected for the regulated fuel pressure I'm running. Data and pressure correction were pretty easy to get as it is a Bosch injector in the throttle body.
    • I will play with the required fuel to get it running leaner or richer. This was not properly done earlier and was way off so it ran but only made about 15mph and loaded the pistons with carbon.
  • When the head gasket blew I originally thought the timing was the culprit but 27 degrees BTDC @ 3500 RPM and 75 mph should not have gotten it too hot. (I'm running a 3.27:1 GT6 differential and put in a T5 5 speed transmission from a Camaro with about 0.76 over drive in 5th gear. Car pulled great at 75 mph without much strain.
    • The head gasket and subsequent piston failure appears have been caused by some pitting in the head right across where the water jacket has it's closet approach to #4. I have since filled this so it won't fail there again!
      • Believe water got behind the fire ring, turned to steam, and blew the fire ring into the piston (photos).
      • It was a AE +.030" piston which are no longer made. Not being able to get a new AE I bought 4 new County pistons to keep the set balanced. Now have 3 AE +.030 pistons on the shelf.
        • I loaded in a timing map from someone's 1300 from the sideways forum (attached)
          • The map appeared to be skewed by at least +9 degrees as idle was at 16 degrees but shop manual recommends 6 BTDC. My current map is attached.
          • The car idles fine and does OK on hard acceleration.
          • I had to back off timing at 30-40mph cruising as it lightly backfired into the intake and then of course oscillated till it caught it's breath again.
          • I believe I have to get the timing pretty good for autoune to work, even with the broadband O2.
  • I had already purchased with wideband before the 1st 90 mile road trip where the head gasket failed on the way home. So I'll install it.

Am I correct in getting the timing set correctly then letting Auto Tune work once I install the broadband O2 sensor?

Attached Images

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  • P1010267.JPG
  • Spit 1300 Ignition Table - Sideways Technology Site.png
  • P1010264.JPG
  • IMG_2920.JPG


#8 Tryumph

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:04 AM

Attached are my latest tunes table and Tuner Studio file all with Narrowband O2 sensor. Will put broadband in tomorrow.

 

Comments, guidance?

 

Kurt

Attached Images

  • AFR Table August 1 2017.png
  • Ignition Table August 1 2017.png
  • VE Table August 1 2017.png

Attached Files



#9 Triumph-V8

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:28 PM

Interesting ignition table

I would expect similar full load data

but more advancs added at part throttle, not less.

 

Why did you choose that way?

 

I went to 2000 rpm and watched the vacuum.

At this point I added 10 degrees to lets say the 20 degrees of full load.

That will give 30 degrees and that did I add to all figures of 2000rpm with

more vacuum.



#10 Triumph-V8

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Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:35 PM

Sorry, under full load at lower revs I would expect less, too



#11 Tryumph

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 02:26 AM

Thanks, I'll put in less at low revs and lower loads. The Triumph manual and Competition guides are very clear that over 30-32 degrees of advance, while good for short term racing, is going to take a lot of life out of the engine. A very knowledgeable local Triumph mechanic says over 30-32 degrees advanced is likely to blow the head gasket. In fact he thinks that is what did mine in but I was only at 27 degrees.

 

I've got the broadband O2 sensor and Spartan 2 Lamda Controller. Will fire it up tomorrow and back the lower rev timing down.

 

Anything else you see in the maps that needs attention?

 

Thank you so much for your insight, saving me a ton of trial and error.



#12 Nick Jones

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 07:36 AM

I thought I'd attached a couple of maps from my Vitesse.  Not there now...... so added again

 

Ignition:

Vitesse MS2.JPG

 

VE table:

250711 after AT.JPG

 

Think of it as a Spitfire engine with two extra cylinders - the timing and fuelling needs will be similar.

 

Your ignition map has too much advance on the 100 kPa line lower down the rpm range.  You also need more advance at part throttle not less as the charge is less dense, burns slower and needs to be lit sooner.  This particularly makes a huge difference to driveabilty and fuel economy.

 

I note your tables go all the way to 8500 rpm.  I doubt you are planning to rev that far?  If not then re-label to more realistic numbers and rearrange the lower numbers for more resolution.  No point in wasting mapping points on areas you'll never go.

 

If you've not found them before, these pages of the Megamanual are really good.

 

http://www.megamanua...egintuning.htm#

 

http://www.megamanua...figure.htm#make

 

Nick



#13 Tryumph

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 02:37 PM

NIck,

 

Thanks, your timing table is too far advanced for my Spit to run on, backfires through the intake. Maybe because my cam is not symmetrical? Or.......

 

I have found that my EDIS 36 tooth pickup wheel was placed on tooth 8 vs. tooth 9. So, if I read this correctly I should have 10 degrees more retarded (after TDC) than I think I do. This will put my limp in mode to TDC vs. 10 BTDC, correct? I've found the SAW wire on the relay board Pin11 (S5) and will pull it to confirm.

 

 So to correct for this I put a -7.5 timing offset and the MS table timing agrees with the strobe timing light (at least at idle and when I put in fixed timing degrees). If this an OK work around or do I need to move the sensor to tooth 9. I'm trying to avoid moving it as e welded the bracket the timing cover.

 

Kurt



#14 Tryumph

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 02:45 PM

NIck,

 

I actually had found your Vitesse timing table earlier and used it to load my table. However, my max advance is 30 and idle is 6 BTDC so I backed most of your numbers down by 9 degrees and limited it to 30 degrees max. Then I got tuning on it and moved pretty far away from your table so I'll move back closer to your values offset by 9 degrees.

 

Yes, I'll be rev limiting this 1300 at 8500. It will take 9,000 but I'm not gonna push it. Won't be racing it but it jumps up to 6,000 very quickly. The 1st time I went over 7,000 the tach got stuck so I had to flick it with my finger to get the dial to return. Has probably not been that high very often.

 

I'm starting it up today with broadband and will send revised tables if I make significant progress today.

 

Thanks for the links and info and slower burning at lower revs. Great knowledge.

 

Kurt



#15 Tryumph

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 03:13 AM

Nick and Fast Driver,

 

- I put in the broadband O2 Sensor and Controller. Used a 14Point7 Spartan 2 with Bosch O2.

- Also loaded Nick's Vitesse Spark Table reduced by about 9 degrees as it goes way over what Triumph recommends as 30-32 Max BTDC.

- Also moved my EDIS sensor from 8 teeth (80 degrees) to 9 teeth (90 degrees) and took out the correction I had in the software. Pulled the SAW wire and confirmed 10 degrees BTDC is the "Limp In" mode. Also confirmed several fixed timing angles with my strobe timing light to confirm all is synched up.

- I took it out for a drive and it was backfiring and bucking a lot. Even at 2,000-3,000 RPM at 40 MPH the engine would oscillate (sp?) between 2K and 3K with a fixed throttle position. I'm wondering if I'm running so rich that the wasted spark in the EDIS is lighting off in the exhaust manifold, is that even possible??

- I let AutoTune work for a while at idle and it stalled a couple of times. Then took it out for a drive with AutoTune and backfiring/oscillations were reduced but not yet eliminated.

- Have attached the tables, and the .msq. The data log file won't upload.

- Will send and the audio of it running with a steady accelerator at 3,000 RPM in neutral and the engine oscillating tomorrow.

 

Any advice on how to get the oscillation/backfire eliminated would be appreciated.

 

Kurt

Attached Images

  • Spitfire 1300 Spark, VE, AFR Table Aug 3, 2017.jpg

Attached Files



#16 Tryumph

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:42 AM

Nick,

 

I tried to included the audio file and the data logging file (by changing the file extension name from .msl to .jpg), but it didn't work, these type files will not post.

 

Will be working on it more today.

 

Any input or advice is appreciated.

 

Kurt



#17 Nick Jones

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Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:27 PM

I've only ever suffered oscillation around idle speeds.  There it is caused either by ignition timing or fuelling parameters.

 

If ignition timing it's usually associated with intentionally raised figures below normal idling speed to provide some idle stabilisation/anti-stall action and means that the timing values or cell intervals are wrong.  Usually I'd think this unlikely at higher rpms but you do have some big timing variations in the affected area (2,400 and especially 3000 up rpm lines have some big steps).

 

Fuelling causes this if you have adjacent cells (or nearly adjacent cells) where one provides exactly the mix that the engine wants, increasing torque and raising the revs.  As this happens it moves to the adjacent cell were the parameters really don't suit it well at all, decreasing torque and causing the revs to drop back into the "happy cell" so the cycle repeats.  This could happen because there is a big step in values between adjacent cells (or over a couple cells), which is not normally going to be valid on a road engine.  If you have a really wild cam or something strange happening with exhaust/induction lengths it could also happen because you don't have enough variation between adjacent cells to reflect the actual change in VE as the engine "comes on cam" for example.  If this is the case then you also want to consider moving your rpm/load points around so you get more resolution at the important points where the engines needs are changing rapidly.

 

I've always found the easiest way to spot this is to run the engine with Tuner Studio open and the VE table (or ignition timing) selected. TS has a marker that shows what cell is being referenced at any time and you can watch how they move around - if you have an oscillation you'll usually find it goes in a circular or elliptical motion and you can then manually change the affected cells - normally the upper right corner of the cells affected (and remember MS interpolates so the cells just outside the zone could be having an effect too) will be the problem one(s).

 

You can also watch the AFR readout and see if it's going from normal to lean or normal to rich.  However, also bear in mind that any event that leads to an actual misfire (full or partial) will lead to O2 going down the pipe and being read as lean, even if it was an excessively rich mixture that caused the misfire!  You need the whole table to be in the zone where the fire will actually burn before auto-tune can work for you.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Nick



#18 Tryumph

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 12:12 PM

Nick,

 

Great insight. Indeed I had adjacent cells that were adding fuel and taking it away, hence the oscillation.

 

I found the cause of my backfiring to be too lean a mixture. To track this down I fixed the timing at 10 BTDC than ran the engine up and watched the VE/AFR cells. As soon as it approached the lean cells it started backfiring. Decreased the AFR and/or increased the VE till backfiring went away. Did this with no load and many load conditions (a very large open parking lot). Once I got the backfiring done I worked a bit on the timing.

 

I"m very close to having it running well, but am pretty sure I'll be a on the rich side.

 

Any ideas on a plan on how to tune in the AFR table more precisely so that I can let auto tune get the VE table aligned?

 

Also in the US they put up to 10% ethanol in the fuel which lowers the stoichiometric ratio down from 14.7 to around 14. However it will vary tank to tank so I probably want to keep it a little rich in case I get a tank of lower % ethanol which will run leaner.

 

Making great progress thanks to you'all's guidance.

 

Kurt



#19 Nick Jones

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 02:01 PM

Glad it helped.

 

I agree that you'll end up mostly on the rich side with that AFR target table.  Possibly a little lean on the top two lines or so at 3500 - 5500, but otherwise mainly rich.

 

Here's an example of one of my target tables - for the Vitesse judging by the rpms (Most of my MS stuff lives on a different laptop, ancient, running XP and no wireless so getting stuff off it is a bit involved.....).

New target table.JPG

 

However, what the engine wants is what it wants, so without data you are guessing.  

 

I've found it really helps (if your car is road legal) to go for a drive with a reasonably competent friend who can change VE values as you drive and this lets you collect some data points about where the limits are for cruise at least.  My technique is to drive at a steady speed (50 - 60 ish) on a flattish road and have him lean off the relevant cells until it starts to hitch and surge.  That'll tell you where the lean limit is and you can then richen up from there until it runs clean and strong again.  You can do this at a few lightish throttle/ rpm points so you generate a few islands of real data in your map. Don't recommend doing this over 4000 rpm as the risk of melting stuff starts to go up!

 

For higher load runs you can go the other way and set the top line to give a well-rich (safe) actual measured AFR. Maybe 11 -  11.5 which will usually be rich enough to make it a bit flat and smelly.  Do brief pulls in a lower gear going through the relevant blocks, backing the VE off a few points each time until you feel it start to "wake-up".  I wouldn't suggest going leaner than 13 actual.

 

As you may have already discovered, some versions of MS firmware have an option to "incorporate AFR table" which basically means that you can tune directly by changing the AFR table.  If you want to investigate this route you'll need to research it first as the one time I tried it (probably with insufficient research and understanding), it messed things up so bad I just switched back.

 

I have to say that once you're sure that MS is working as it should and you've got a handle on it, you can really save yourself some time, fuel and risk by finding a chassis dyno with an operator who's willing to let you be involved.

I'm lucky enough to have one reasonably close by who'll put me in the passenger seat while he "drives" on the dyno and watches the dials.  He just tells me more fuel, less fuel (or timing if we are looking at that) and I do the laptop stuff.  Takes less than an hour usually.  Well worth it for the final polish at least, but you can get there without.  First time I took the Vitesse we found nothing more - I didn't know whether to be pleased I'd got it so good on my own or disappointed there was nothing left on the table!   One thing is for sure though - I'd have got there easier, cheaper and much quicker just going to the dyno.  Not always easy to find a suitable place though.

 

Nick

 

 



#20 Tryumph

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 12:32 PM

Thanks Nick,

 

Yes, my MS does incorporate the AFR table and I've been using it that way since the start. Love both the dyno and friend ride along ideas. I've got the friend and can find a dyno.

 

By reading around I've found that the 10% ethanol fuel here is the US has a stoichiometric ratio of 14.1 vs. 14.7 so will change that.

 

I've also gotten some timing vs. RPM for the Spitfire that will help me get the timing closer.

 

Finally I've seen that tuning my using the Lambda value is pretty effective. Have to read more on this but this seems like a sound approach.

 

Thanks to your guidance I'm getting closer to having the car running OK using my "Parking Lot" method. Then will go on to the ride along friend technique. Finally I'll get it right fine tuned using the Lambda and/or dyno.

 

Will update as I made progress.

 

Kurt






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