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#221 rogerguzzi

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 01:25 PM

Hello All

             We have all been on the rolling road?

 

The man there is the same as what nick said I sat in the car while he drove it(the only downside for him was his remote control is broken so he had to keep getting in and out of the car) And I adjusted the fuel cells while he looked at the data.

 

 He took it for a spin around the block before testing and said to me it feels rich and sluggish.

 

We have turned the fuel cells down a lot and she feels better now and my AFR meter slows a lot leaner

 

The BHP was a bit down on what I hoped for but it is a tired engine but the torque curve looks good for cruising?

 

Plus the economy should be better now?

 

I turned off the closed loop while testing and we have got the tick over to about 1000rpm but I will have another play now I know the fuel cells are better.

 

The ignition map was altered on the full throttle area to a bit more advance! he said the rest looked ok and nothing to extreme.

 

I was there for about 2.5hrs+ and gave him £150 he asked for £140 so I was pleased and I can always tinker a bit now with other setting as long as his tune is saved?

 

Roger

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#222 rogerguzzi

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 03:01 PM

Hello All

             I have been looking at all the settings since the rolling road and I am wondering if I should turn the AFR table off for now as the way I read it it will be trying to alter the fuel cells to the nominal targets that I set which on average are rich!

 

Which will not what was set on the rolling road?

 

What I want is TunerStudio to adjust the AFR targets to suit the VE table?(I think?)

 

Roger



#223 Nick Jones

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 05:22 PM

With a well used engine and original cam I don't think there's anything wrong with the numbers.  As you say a torquey engine is usually nicer drive for everyday cruising.  I wouldn't take too much notice of the absolute numbers anyway.  The reason the power is low is that it runs out of puff early - either due to the cam or possibly exhaust side (can't remember what you have).

 

You are correct about your AFR table - but what you really need to do is to alter it so it reflects the tune you've ended up with and stops try to tune away from it.  Not quite sure what the easiest way of doing this is.

 

There are ways of incorporating the AFR table into the fuel calculation so that changing the target table values directly affects the tune.  That really needed to be done before the major tuning took place.  I did try this once on the PI and it messed things up mightily so I promptly put it back.

 

I guess you can tune using the AFR table as the input point but unless you set the tuning parameters aggressively (not risk free) it will make the tuning process slow.

 

Some of that AFR table stuff here

 

http://www.msextra.c...ing_Up-3.4.html

 

If you figure it out perhaps you can explain it to me......

 

Nick



#224 Dazman1360

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:45 PM

Hi Roger,

 

First thing I done after my RR session was to export all the tables and save the tune, at least you can go back to them if you start messing around and screw something up  :P .

 

Your numbers are close to what I got from a newly rebuilt 1300, but I'm not getting anywhere near the economy you seem to achieve. Not that I have been monitoring closely, but on a run back from Surrey a few weeks ago which included a bit of town driving, a bit of sitting in heavy traffic and a lot of 60-70mph cruising I got around 36mph.

 

Did it fix the dip in revs as it drops back to idle? Mine idles around 850rpm but drops to 650/700rpm as you come to a stop, soon recovers but would be good to fix.

 

Anyway, good result for you today  :banana: .

 

Darren



#225 rogerguzzi

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 06:45 PM

Hello Nick

                I have a 4/2/1 exhaust with the wheelbarrow tail pipes but mine has a middle box which stops it being to noisy.

 

The cam is Triumph grind on large journal 65/25/25/65 and about 9.5 to 1 compression and cleaned up ports.

 

The torque should be good for cruising at 70/80MPH (Spitty is 3000rpm for 70mph in top) its a 28% overdrive! so about 3000 to 3500 rpm!

 

Do you like the wall art? the man is into Ford RS2000,s etc

 

Spitty dumped some oil on the floor from my new breather pipe but it was bloody hot and stressed! I think I will reconnect the rocker box one as well(tired engine?)

 

If I look at the places were Tuner Studio did its auto tuning and note the fuel cell number to what is there now it should give me a clue?

 

I think I need to print out all the tables and open a bottle of wine? then sit there and scratch my head etc?

 

I may turn the closed loop back on as it only looks at low down revs so I do not think it can do to much harm? and I don,t think it alters the fuel cells it just seems to give a bit more fuel and air(well that,s what it looks like to me when watching it)

 

Roger

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#226 Nick Jones

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 09:06 PM

That is serious wall art - worth good money at today's RS2000 prices!

 

Given your engine spec it should make more power (you knew that!).  Something happens abruptly at 4600 rpm as your nice flat torque curve falls off a cliff and the power, which has rising nicely to that point declines rapidly.  That cam should be good for at least 1000 rpm more and the other mods should support it.

 

Presumably it wasn't running out of injector / fuel flow as you'd have seen that as going lean.  Possibly valve bounce, though very early (would indicate very feeble springs).  Presumably you do get full throttle?  Did you data log the runs?  Did you get any funny exhaust note at 4,600?

 

Not terrible news with a 1500 as they don't usually beg to be revved anyway!

 

Nick



#227 rogerguzzi

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 10:24 PM

Hello Nick

               I think the Triumph figure were shall we say optermistic?

 

But I am happy enough for now (might build a new engine next winter? boys and TOYS!)

 

And the throttles are a bit shut but reasoned that 40mm slightly shut was the same a 1 1/2" full open???

 

But I do not do track days it is just the challenge as I am sure you can see(ENGINEERS!!!!) they can not leave things alone!

 

Still better than Suduco or what ever it is????

 

Roger

 

ps I hope the mountain baro works ? (I may try and hide the lap top in the boot so can play on holiday?) please do not tell the Memsab



#228 rogerguzzi

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Posted 07 June 2017 - 03:05 PM

Hello All

             I have been out in Spitty today for a final? test before we head off tho Spain and Portugal.

 

I had a small panic as the tick over was about 1300/1400 rpm when warmed up? but it turned out to be the throttle cable not seated properly(have had the rocker cover off to see about an extra breather after the oil on floor yesterday)

 

She seem a lot better on cold start up and after the cable issue settled to 800ish rpm(I adjusted the target down by 25 to 775rpm)

 

I have left it on closed loop because all it seems to do is put the pulse width up and open idle air valve a bit

 

I have turned the AFR table off for now as it will be wrong.

 

I may try and sneak the laptop in when we go away so I can mess! do not tell the Memsahib?

 

I have had a thought about the AFR table? if I make some adjustments lean then let auto-tune have a go I can see were some of the VE cells finish up and compare them to the Rolling Road VE table? (does that sound like a plan that would work in the area of auto-tune?)

 

I have attached the before and after VE tables from RR session.

 

At tick over I can see the AFR meter going from about 14.5 to 15.2 and when I turn the fans on it goes to about 13.5 so it looks as though it is doing what it should? plus dips a bit then steadies and then rises a bit when they go off and drops back.

 

Roger

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#229 rogerguzzi

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 02:51 PM

Hello All

             I think I can see were my loss of BHP is?

 

You know I said the throttles do not open fully well had another look today and with a bit of rough measuring I think it is about 17 to 18%!!!!!!!!!

 

So did some calculations on 1 1/2"(38mm) and 40mm

 

38mm area = 1134(not sure how much the venturi affects this?)

40mm area = 1256 - 1134 = -122sq mm area

1256 x 18% =  226 - 122 = 104 sq mm area

 

So take the 38mm @ 1134 and work out what 104 is and I make it 9.2% !

 

So take the 74BHP we got on Rolling Road and do a crude multiplying = 80.8BHP!

 

Which to be honest is more what I was expecting?

 

Or am I talking complete Rollocks?

 

I will have to make a new snail type cam after holidays to give the extra opening

 

Just realized I can check it in TunerStudio so wedged throttles wide open and calibrated TPS and then released it and put foot hard to floor! B******r only showing 80.2% so worse than I thought?

 

Still it means the 80BHP may be in site? :thumbsup:

 

Still will leave for holiday the Memsahib would give me a very FIRM nudge if I start driving like that!

 

Roger

 

ps Nick that is why it did not run lean at top end (no more suck?)

 

 

 

 



#230 Nick Jones

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 06:54 PM

That would explain it.  It shouldn't go lean at the top end, it's just that sometimes undersize fuel injectors or lack of fuel flow to the injectors is the limiting factor and shows up clearly as going lean.

 

In your case it's a lack of airflow caused by the throttles not opening fully......

 

Nick



#231 rogerguzzi

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 07:45 PM

Hello Nick

               Have noticed just when you think you can not be a bigger Numpty! It happens!

 

Still I hope all others out there learn a bit from my school boy mistakes?

 

Plus I am toooo old to be embarrassed any more that,s for all the young ones who know it all(Just like we were?)

 

I am just glad it all works and is getting better(I will have to build that new engine now! unless the grim reaper gets me!)

 

When I get back from Spain and Portugal I will sort out the linkage and then take to my Rolling Road man to see what it really makes should only take about 1 hour?

 

Its all this stuff that keeps me young?(In mind the body is a bit knackered but the wine helps?) I wonder if it will be on the NHS soon?

 

I will start a tour post if you all want of or trip with photo,s? I have done one for the TSSC for the last 3 trips? but if not the right Forum please say and I will not.

 

Now which cam for the new engine? it has to tour so not wild? was thinking of the Numan one I think it is PH2 and ground on a small journal so I can fit cam bearings in the block?

 

But I am open to suggestions but I do not like tappity engines(in road cars! ok for race cars.)

 

What about a turbo?(now I know I have drunk to much?) The trips I have finished up paying for because of the Demon Drink? still the kids and my mate do not seem to care(funny that!!!!!)

 

Now this use I think 1.5galls on taxi and about 3 galls on full throttle?(that is per minute?)

 

Roger

 

ps sorry for the ramble

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#232 Nick Jones

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 07:35 AM

Hi Roger,

 

I think we've all been there on the numpty stakes...... just that some are more prone to confession than others!  To err is human - the trick is to not end up as one of Darwin's trophies (as it were http://www.darwinawards.com/)

 

I'm not sure I'd go alot further on the cam than you have already.  My view is that the 1500 needs to be tuned for torque as it is not very keen on high revs.  The Mk3 grind you have is a good all-rounder and only lacks a bit in the lift department.  You can get the 6 cylinder version with a bit more lift on the inlet side (Chris Witor does them for one), which is reckoned to work well.  Similar results can be achieved by using higher ratio rockers on the inlet only.  

Having said that, the Newman PH2 should be docile enough given your engine management and if my Newman cam is any guide it'll be quiet running too.  Have to also mention that a mate of mine runs the PH1 in his EFI TR6 and that idles like a clock, pulls like a train from idle and actually seems to rev pretty freely too.  He had to change the diff from US spec 3.7:1 to UK 3.45:1 to reduce the wheelspin in 2nd and 3rd.....  Not what I would have chosen (though I might now!) but has proven very effective and gives a very driveable car.

 

The temptation to "over-cam" needs to be resisted on a road car.  My Vitesse is over-cammed really for what I use it for.

 

We like pics and I'm very curious about that corner of the Iberian peninsula as never been west or south of Santander.......  Wish you luck with the weather as I understand it can rain alot in the Picos!  Certainly rained alot in Biarritz the summer we holiday'd there.

 

Nick



#233 rogerguzzi

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Posted 09 June 2017 - 10:12 AM

Hello Nick

               I have realized I will have to reset the TPS to what it was or I will have lean fuelling because 80% map would be 100% throttle which is 5 to 10 down in the cells

 

I think before the next rolling road set up I will call the 100% cell line my 80% line and fill a few richer one above and try and work out were the other cells would be(divide the 100 into 80 and move them down I think) so it would still be some were near?

 

Does that sound about right? or are my little grey cells confused?

 

               I fitted a Chris Witor extra lift cam to my brother in laws TR6 along with a ported head(£10) just needed guides a skim and 3 angle cut?

 

The compression was set at about 9 to 1 as Chris said any more and pinking could occur and 9.5 only gives a couple of more BHP

 

I chickened out on our local bypass at 100MPH and it was still pulling like a train.

 

He later had it further tuned and tested and it made either 120 or 130 BHP(but the Pr****t) has sold it now and I fitted Megajolt,changed the g/box and o/d plus rebuilt a 3.45 diff to replace the 3.7 and fitted electic fan etc.

 

It used to start on ALL 6 cylinders and tick over(unusual for a 6)

 

The MK3 grind with extra lift may be a good way to go but Chris witor said it was to allow extra suck on SU,s so not sure with EFI?(more research needed! Thinking with wine!)

 

I will run a small holiday report for you and any one else that is interested? here are a few from Italy last year(we did 3500 miles via Classic Le Mans and Normandy on the way back)

 

The last one is a Doss house we stayed at on the way back and was ripped off to the tune of £50 b&b with a RUBBISH view and poor breakfast and the dinner was just as poor with the lady of the houses son being waiter to just us and was another £40 with wine x2 etc and enough food for 4 or 6?

 

Still some one has to wave the Flag :D

 

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#234 rogerguzzi

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Posted 10 June 2017 - 05:29 PM

Hello All

             I MUST stop tinkering now only 2 days before we go to Spain & Portugal? (probably not much hope for me now)My late Mother was shocked when I had stripped my first Motorcycle down within a day to fix the Big end? but I had been repairing? things for years.

 

I found the throttle springs were not shutting throttles tight enough so I have added a light spring for the last bit and now if I turn off the idle air valve the tick over goes down to 650RPM so I know the idle air valve is controlling the tick over now!

 

A bit more tinkering with tick over settings has got it to just under 800RPM with a fluctuation of about 25/50RPM and it dips and picks up with load(fans,light ,heater)

 

The AFR is 14.7 to 15.1 on warm tick over

 

I have had another go at the cold start settings now from cold(60 deg F) She starts up after 2 cycles(as set) and goes up to 1250/1200RPM and gradually comes down to 800RPM with no intervention(sitting in garage) the idle air valve goes from fully open 90% to about 33% (fully closed 30%)

 

Starting from hot She does the 2 cycles then goes to about 1000RPM and after a few seconds drops back to 800RPM without touching the throttle(its hard not to after all these years?) but do not do it on the moderns?

 

I have added a second breather after the Rolling road oil leak

 

So NO messing now?

 

Roger

 

ps how about these 2?

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#235 rogerguzzi

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Posted 13 June 2017 - 08:38 PM

Hello Nick

                I am on a boat and bored so have been thinking about camshafts(sad)

 

The Newman PH2 30/70/70/30 = 280 deg is very similar to the Kas Kastener S2 at 31/71/71/31   =  282 degs which he says is a good street cam

 

The only thing not known is the lift curve of the 2 ?






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