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V3 Microsquirt Ignition


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Hello All

            This my first post here so please be gentle with me?

 

I am starting to install EFI on my Triumph Spitfire 1500.

 

I have been running Megajolt on the car for about 5 years(20,000 mls) so I thought lets have a challengeand fit EFI.

 

I have removed the Megajolt and fitted the V3 Microsquirt and wired it up for ignition as a first step.

 

This were my problems have started I decided not to use the Edis4 and fit an ignition module instead this one

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331704617090?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I have wired it up as shown in the manual and set the software to Toothed wheel and tried various setting but I get no spark? I wondered if I had got a faulty unit(bought off Ebay but had not been used)

 

So in desperation I rigged up the Edis4 and changed the software to Edis and it fired up straight away and was giving ignition advance(and it ran in limp mode as well)

 

So back to were I was? so it must be me putting in the wrong settings?

 

I have also thought of changing the coil to one of these.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271395612357?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

So any help would be much appreciated

 

Roger

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Welcome Roger!

 

I'm not really familiar with Microsquirt except where it overlaps with MS2.

 

Why did you decide to try and ditch EDIS when you already had it working with MJL - seems a little masochistic?  EDIS is a perfectly decent way to go and in my view is only improved on when you have the ability to fire the coils directly from on-board coil drivers such as modified MS2 or MS3.

 

I presume that the alternative you tried involved using the Microsquirt to decode the trigger wheel signal and the ignition module is simply used as the coil driver?  This would imply that the issue was most likely with getting the 'squirt to read the trigger wheel.  This could be something as simple as sensor polarity, software settings or perhaps wiring to the correct pin. I would certainly expect a different pin to be used for an input direct from the crank position sensor compared to the PIP signal from EDIS as the signal is very different. If you spin the engine with laptop attached does the ECU actually see that the engine is turning?  If not, the problem is in that area, not the ignitor unit. Certainly in the MS2 full size box there are a number of hardware set-up traps to fall into - which I've always avoided by sticking with EDIS.  Cowardly maybe.  I am occasionally tempted to add coil drivers to my ECU so I can ditch the EDIS, but so far I've always stepped away from the car and allowed the feeling to die away.

 

Why change the coil?  The Ford ones are pretty robust.  VAG coils are fairly legendary for being fragile.  If you just want a coil pack that doesn't need weird lead ends then use a later Ford pack.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

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Hello All

             This how I have decided to make the connections it is mounted in the left hand foot well were the speaker would have been.

 

I thought this way I can make all the wiring from engine bay back and keep it in the dry(well that's the theory!)

 

Roger

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Hello Nick

                Numpty number one here.

 

I thought I had checked and double(many more) checked all the wiring :wub:

 

But I thought back to basics and rechecked the VR sensor inputs(you are ahead of me now?) I had the cam VR sensor connector in the crank VR sensor postion on the board!!!!!!

 

So I have been trying to get it to fire on a signal that expects half speed and only 4 pulses(or something like that)

 

So taken it all out and corrected the wiring just in the process of refitting :unsure:

 

The reason for not using the Edis4 unit was A its old and B less connections plus I have read it is easier to diagnose a fault without it(Edis4 works or not)

 

If It works now??? I will stick with the Ford type coil pack and ignition module(I would have to change the leads as well)

 

This what I will be fitting if can get the ignition up and running?

 

Roger

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What is the sense to grab the cam signal instead that from the crank?

Its half the precision and all the spread with the chain adds, too!

 

I would log with TunerStudio and look at it later.

Also you can watch the VR signal on a special page

(Hopefully that all works the same like MS2)

 

...... and would cut off all that nasty cables, I was shocked

when I did see that. If I would not have a system already running I

would immediately stop all the work on that complicated thing!!!

I only used about 10 cables for all the stuff and thats it!

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Hello All

             Success (sort of? you know when one door opens two more slam in your face)

 

Well after corrected my wiring C**** up Spitty started up ok so I was feeling pleased with myself until I turned it off and it would not stop!

 

Now I have read about this being cause by a back feed from the alternator via the ignition light(not a problem with the Megajolt system)

 

So with the Triumph wiring diagram to sort the problem out! Ha Ha I thought how about using the radio feed cable? (No radio) so found the connector and ran a wire from it to power the relays(feeling smug at this stage)

 

Switched it all on and TunerStudio went on line but it would not start! strange I thought but after a bit of testing find that the power to the radio is cut while cranking the engine(B****r I thought)

 

So its back to a diode in the alternator exciter cable.

 

Still its progress! the ignition map needs a bit of work(I have not got a clue how it knows were TDC is I just set on toothed wheel and skip 3 teeth and falling edge)

 

Roger

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Well done.  It's witchcraft I tell you........  :blink:

 

When it works it's great.  When there are gremlins...... not so great.  A certain TR6 had me tearing my fur out - which reminds me, he's still using my spare ECU as his won't work in his car but works fine in mine......

 

Nick

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Hello Triumph V8

                           I think you are right I think I will remove most of these cables before the final fit

 

Tha cam signal was a C***k up by me but its a learing curve and taxing this old brain? but fun when you get it to work and beats the S****t out of TV etc

 

I am looking forward the fitting the throttle bodies! with trepidation(still I am sure you will all help me or wet your selves laughing?)

 

I wish i had done this years ago.

 

Still not used the new milling machine? (still you can not have to many tools and machines?)

 

Roger

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello All

             A lot more questions for you all as you are familiar with EFI(me still on the STEEP learning curve)

 

I have got the car running on the ignition side of the Microsquirt and calibrated the water and air temperature sensors.

 

So I have started to fit the injection side and the problems have started! 

 

The first problem is the Weber type inlet manifolds will not fit the No1 & No4 hit the No1 & No4 exhaust pipe on my 4 -2 - 1 I thought I could get away with a smallish dent? but no, I have cut into it but now realise it will cut the flow by 25% on my exhaust the No1&4 pipes pass outside the No2&3 pipes.

 

The problem is the angle of the inlets which is about 15degs on the No2 & 3 and 25degs on the No1 & 4 the oher way around and they would clear (just)

 

I have looked at other exhaust for sale on various sites and they all seem to be the other way around ie 1& 4 inside and 2 & 3 outside which I think would fit? something like this? 

 

http://www.maniflow.co.uk/uploads/96812_2768003d1cdec64d735d9a955f23475c.jpg

 

What has everyone else got fitted?

 

The next problem is the vacuum side of things?

 

I need one for the MAP sensor and one for the fuel pressure regulator! so can they share the same line? and will one tapping on the manifold do of is it better to have all 4 manifold tapped?

 

Then there is the idle air? now on the Jenvey site they list adaptors to fit were the air bleed are(which my throttle bodies have although they are not Jenvey's) and they use this setup.

 

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/products2/accessories/idle-air/air-control-valve-kit-4-ports-avk2t2

 

So any advice would be appreciated 

 

Roger

 

 

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Well, I'll just leave this here

 

I'm not quite following you on the angle thing - need more pics showing the actual problem.

Same issues must apply to anyone with side-draught carbs.

 

Vacuum - I would suggest that all 4 runners should be tapped and linked together with small bore vac.tubing.  The regulator and MAP sensor can both be connected to the same commoned-up system.

 

Do the TBs not have adjustable stop screws?  If you must do the remote air-bleed you could get hold of the idle screw from a PI manifold and some push-fit tubing/connctors and make your own for rather less I think.

 

Nick

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Hello Nick

                That link is very interesting and made me have another look at the problem and after some more bashing I have decided its a non starter as the No4 runner hits the exhaust behind the flange of the throttle body end(the No4 exhaust is more proud than No1

 

So it is which exhaust manifold to get?

 

I thought 4 tappings for vacuum would be best.

 

The throttle bodies do have adjustable stop screws but they operate 2 throttle plates(common shaft)so you could only balance in pairs but slight adjustments can be made with the bleed screws.

 

In the photo below which position do you think would be best for the vacuum take off's(cylinder head end or throttle body end)

 

I thought some of these(I could not make them for that price?)

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291262449313?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I would need 6mm version if I was to use the bleed screw tapping for air bypass

 

Roger

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello All


             Some progress again I think?


 


I have finally got the new exhaust manifold to fit after machining the No1 & No4 flat(No4 at a bit of an angle may have pulled down?) and putting a few dents in to miss the sump.


 


I machined the inlet manifolds so they slope up at about a 2.5 deg angle to give more clearance on the No1 inlet.(and a small dent)


 


I also made a strap to clamp the 2 manifolds true to each other while bolting to the Cylinder Head(using 4 of the throttle body studs)


 


I still am unsure were to drill for the vacuum pipes(Head end or Throttle body end as shown by red dots?) on both of course.


 


I was also thinking would it be worth fitting a heat shield under the throttle bodies? I am not sure if EFI is as much affected as Carb's(no float chambers)


 


I think I have solved the TPS sensor problem of being to near the baulk head by cutting off the 2 ears on the the connector and fitting the retaining clip from the other side (I may try undoing the engine mountings to see if I can fit a spacer to give a bit more clearance by moving it forward)


 


I have to weld a boss onto the new exhaust pipe for the Lambda sensor before I can fit all the system back on.


 


I am looking at how to arrange the throttle linkage plus where to fit the fuel pressure regulator.


 


Will the original fuel feed pipe be big enough to use as the return line to the tank?


 


I still have not removed the fuel tank to see about fitting a pump inside it.


 


Roger


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Progress!

 

I'd drill at the TB end but I don't think it makes much difference.

 

FI is much less fussy about temperature - I'd still be tempted to put a heat-shield there though to stop the TBs getting barbequed.

 

Return fuel line

if 5/16" - yep fine

if 1/4" - hmmm, maybe.  I think std Herald is 1/4........

 

In tank pump - yes, nice but quite alot of effort.  Mine is external and lives under the boot floor, fed from a banjo fitting on the drain

http://www.shadetreegarage.co.uk/Megasquirt2.htm#Top

 

Banjo assy.jpg

 

The pump came from a Peugoet 405 SRi originally (as did it's cradle) but same pump is used on many things. £ 120 ish from Bosch or £70 ish from Sytech.  Sytech ones must have a strainer upstream as they don't have a built in onelike the Bosch ones.

 

Works fine and you can run the tank almost dry without surge issues - it's been thoroughly tested!  You need to be bloody careful about removing the bung though.  Many are permanent by now.

 

Nick

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Hello Nick 

               If I use the feed pipe for return the fuel will be delivered to the bottom of the tank is this ok? or I could use the original feed as a feed(do these pumps suck?) and return the fuel via the blocked off vent(or would that cause to much turbulence and aeration?)

 

I am not sure if the Spitfire tank has a drain plug(never looked)

 

I will look at exterior pumps as this project is getting complicated enough!

 

Roger

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My Vitesse uses the original feed to return - to the bottom of the tank.  No issues.

 

The roller cell high pressure pumps don't suck well and work much better with a flooded suction and decent size, unrestricted suction path.  Fit a strainer on the suction side but not a filter.  Filter goes on the discharge side.

 

There are a number of variants on the Spitfire tanks.  Some have drains, or even outlets on the bottom, others not.  Not sure how it relates by year.  We've got 3 here, all different.

 

Nick

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Hello Nick

                I have removed the fuel tank and their is no drain plug fitted so I will have to modify the tank in some way.

 

I am thinking of getting one of these

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RANGE-ROVER-CLASSIC-V8-EFI-NEW-IN-TANK-HIGH-PRESSURE-FUEL-PUMP-PRC8318-1986-1990-/121643468861?hash=item1c5284083d:g:bJ4AAOSw6BtVTNUz

 

I have asked the seller for sizes and he said  lenght about 23/24cm under fixing plate and plate is 9cm diameter.(which is about the depth of the tank)

 

I can make a mounting flange to welded into the tank(maybe on a tube to sit just above)

 

I like the idea of top mounting less risk of leakage and I think I could put the filter at the side of the tank behind the tank cover(only 6 screws to remove when needed) which should not be often as the tank is clean and rust free and there is a strainer on the inlet

 

What do you think?

 

Roger

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Roger, I may have said before, get a golf IV pump. It fits a treat, built in swirl pot just remove the sender arm.

We made up a plate with brazed studs that was brazed to the tank. That was tricky, as it required the seam to be removed. Then a clamp ring was used to secure the pump in place. We used the oe rubber seal. 

Fitted on the drivers side of the tank, it has proved reliable and effective, even on a trackday when we got a bit low on fuel (about half gallon or so left I reckon)

 

I would hesitate to use a repro pump, they don't seem to last well, and an in-tank one will be a pain to swap. 

 

Just my 2p worth

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Hello Zetecspit

                        You told me about that one on the TSSC forum thank,s

 

If I use this one I would not have to remove the seam?

 

I saw a genuine used one on Ebay for £20 and a nos one for £60.

 

Is a swirl pot necessary? or only if the tank gets low and hard cornering?

 

Roger 

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Fair point re the seam. I would worry about fuel starvation though, the tank is wide and flat. Some sort of swirl pot would be a very good idea.

If the pump is not in fuel, the engine will cut out. Not sure how much fuel you would need to keep as a minimum in the tank to stop this being an issue on road.

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Hello All

 

             Thank's for all the advice given it has given me much to think about!

 

I have decided to go with the Range Rover pump for several reasons

 

1) It will be easier for me to fabricate a mounting flange and less likely to leak being on the top.

 

2) Looking at the pump it appears that the inlet is on the bottom so if I arrange the mounting flange correctly the inlet will be on the tank floor so if I keep at least 1/4 tank of fuel I don't think there will be fuel surge problems(well that's the theory!)

 

3) If I use the original feed as a return it will put the returned fuel under fuel level so I assume less airation? and better for cooling the fuel as it mixes with the tank full?

 

4) If I am wrong I will have to get a new tank and go down the swirl pot route(still its all fun?)

 

Problem is now do I buy a nos at £70 or a replica at £28?(they come with a 12 month warranty?)I could buy 2 replicas but that's just silly

 

I welcome comments on my folly!

 

Roger

 

Ps spent the day correcting some gardening work we had done by a SO CALLED LANDSCAPE GARDENER(I know its not correct but gypo's would have done a better job?) it is the first time in my my life I have felt conned and embarest about it! now I know why I do all my own work(even if it nearly kills me!)

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Range Rover......?

 

Like this one?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ESR3926-FUEL-PUMP-LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-1-RANGE-ROVER-CLASSIC-V8-EFi-/321394092165?hash=item4ad494a885:g:3jAAAOSwofxUfijp

 

Professional = someone who expects to be be paid to do something you could do yourself, but not as well as you could do it yourself.......  Not always true - but alot more often than it ought to be!

 

Nick

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attachicon.gifBanjo assy.jpg

 

 

 

Hi all

 

Sorry to butt into the thread but I was going to use your idea for taking the fuel supply from the drain and return back to the original supply on my Vitesse. I think the drain bolt is 5/8 UNF but can't as yet find a supplier for a banjo that big. The best I can get is a 5/8 to an -6 male to male, then take a 90 degree off that, but thats going to get bulky. Prefer your idea of a banjo. Any pointers to where I may get one?

thanks

 

Mark

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