Been Here A Few Weeks

[NeilR]

Signed up and have been posting, but no approval from moderators for some reason.

Have a Triumph special, Rochdale Olympic, hillclimb car and a few other things.

Am here to lear about chassis and suspension.

[pomwah]

Welcome Neil always room for a new member interested in chassis and suspension modifications but, be warned, there are many opinions on those topics and they can lead to some lively debates.

 

We also love pictures. If you have any handy post them up so we can all see what you've got.

 

There's a tutorial on how to include images and/or video in your posts here.

 

Cheers.

[NeilR]

Thanks for that ... I'll just try a link from photobucket to see if it works.

You can see some of the home garage behind.

[NeilR]

There we go, works OK.

I am interested in making a replacement Herald chassis from SHS and RHS to the dimensions online and trying to make it as stiff as possible and equip it with suspension that works well.

[GT6MK3]

G'Day Neil, welcome aboard.  Interesting looking project.  Where in Aus are you?

 

C.

 

(Mod's here are terrible!  We must get some decent ones!)

[JohnD]

Neil,

This looks to be a great project! 

You posted more pics of the body shell in your previous thread: http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/6996-australian-special-for-herald-chassis/?do=findComment&comment=92295

They make me wonder if a space frame chassis (from the background of your pic here it's clear you can do that!) would be easier and better than a reproduction Herald chassis.   There's a recent thread on the CT forum about the torsional rigidity - or lack of - of the Herald/Spitfire chassis: http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?m-1423691967/s-24/highlight-chassis/#num24 with some links and good ideas to make it better.

 

JOhn

[NeilR]

GT6 I'm in Melbourne.

Thanks for the link John. A proper spaceframe would be possible, but there are vagaries in my state of Victoria that allow old cars to run on a Club Permit and not registration (equiv to your road tax). If I build a full spaceframe I could just use MX5 suspension etc, but it would lose all of the flavor of the original. However more importantly it would be classified as a 'new' individually constructed vehicle and would need to meet current emissions laws etc. If I use the Herald chassis and ID then I can keep most of the flavor of the old car and I can put it on the road without messing around with emissions tests etc.

All good fun!

[JohnD]

The "flavour of the original" is E-type, with Alfa Romeo on the side.

There is no Triumph heritage: the only connection with Triumph is front suspension (?) that Chapman used for all his Loti right up the Elan, and that tunnel looks awfully like an Elan tunnel, but if you have bureaucratic problems, I can see your point!

Good luck!  Please keep us informed!

JOhn

[NeilR]

Originally I suspect it was all Herald underneath, the bulkhead and floorpan appear to be molded directly off a Herald - hence the connection there.

[zelrik]

GT6 I'm in Melbourne.

Thanks for the link John. A proper spaceframe would be possible, but there are vagaries in my state of Victoria that allow old cars to run on a Club Permit and not registration (equiv to your road tax). If I build a full spaceframe I could just use MX5 suspension etc, but it would lose all of the flavor of the original. However more importantly it would be classified as a 'new' individually constructed vehicle and would need to meet current emissions laws etc. If I use the Herald chassis and ID then I can keep most of the flavor of the old car and I can put it on the road without messing around with emissions tests etc.

All good fun!

hi Neil - that project looks really interesting, good luck with it.

 

Just a tip on the NEW Vic. Club rules.

It is now incredibly helpful to know the older Australian Registration number which (I presume) the car had at some stage in the past.

This means that you can mostly bypass a new Engineers Report (@ $600 +++) for Club Reg. The new club reg forms have this old Reg number emphasised - it wasnt a requirement under the old rules.

This means that imported cars that weren't registered here yet, now require an Engineers Report regardless plus a Roadworthy.

Peter 

[NeilR]

Sorry for my slow response - work commitments.

Thanks Peter, the two cars I have found, a Mk1 Herald and a Mk2 Vitesse have both been registered but no documentation exists for either.

My understanding of the 30% engine capacity rule is that the Herald came with up to 1360cc engine, which means a 1750cc Alfa engine will be ok. The Vitesse is no issue.

A RWC will not be a problem.

[Nick Jones]

Herald 13/60 is actually 1296cc - which is not so helpful.......  (13 = 1300cc / 60hp)

 

Nick

[NeilR]

Bugger!

There goes the 1750 Alfa engine option.

[Nick Jones]

Sorry...... better to find out before fitting it though!

 

Mk1 Herald (if that is what you really mean) were 948 or 1200cc and had a very feeble chassis

 

Mk2 Vitesse has certain suspension advantages though a same to remove a Vitesse from the fleet as I gather they are really rare in Oz?

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[itiejim]

Surely using the Vitesse with it's greater CC opens up more engine options too? If you're stuck with 1296 plus 30% there's always the 1600 version of the Alfa Nord which can be made into a willing little lump.

[pomwah]

Toyota 4A-GE, 1600cc.

 

Have the rules changed? I thought the maximum displacement of a replacement engine was determined by the original weight of the car.

[NeilR]

Don't know if weight will be an issue for club permit.

Nick, how does the Mk1 chassis differ to make it feeble?

Jim, the reason for the 2lt engine interest is that 3 came with the body and I have found a couple more. I could find a 1600 easy enough, or even a 1300. I have become used to torque and it would be nice to have some in this. The Alfa gearboxes are very light too, so the whole package is attractive.

4AGE is too modern. I cannot make the argument that I'm using a potentially period modification, though there is no doubt it is a better engine

[pomwah]

The way I see it it's a 25 year old engine going into a 50 year old car. I'm not sure they worry too much about the vintage of the replacement anyway just that it's not overpowering the car, at least that's the impression the engineer I spike to gave me.

 

Edit: I'm referring to "Table LA1" on page 11/LA41 of the "Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14", version 2.0 January 2011. Based on that table, your 1750 engine is permissible.

 

Here: http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx

Edited March 7, 2015 by pomwah

[NeilR]

It can get confusing as it is not just the ADR's (Australian Design Rules) but also the needs of the club permit scheme that need to be met.

(A Club Permit is preferred due to the intended use of the finished car and the potential to reduce costs.)

The latter states (and sorry for those not interested):

 

Era
The term “of the era†in relation to equipment such as engines, transmissions, drive axles etc means: For a vehicle built before 1949 – any such equipment typically fitted to vehicles designed and manufactured before 1949 but includes essentially identical equipment manufactured after 1948 that utilises technology and materials that were in general use before 1949.
For a vehicle built before 1969 – any such equipment typically fitted to vehicles designed and manufactured before 1969 but includes essentially identical equipment manufactured after 1968 that utilises technology and materials that were in general use before 1969. (Here's where the Alfa engine comes in - plus I have some)

 

Engines:

Significant power increase. The term “significant power increase†in relation to replacement engines is based upon a comparison of manufacturer’s published brake horsepower figures
and means:
For engines up to 2000 cc – a 40% increase in power;
For engines from 2001 cc to 3500 cc – a 30 % increase in power; and
For engines over 3500 cc – a 20 % increase in power.

In the case of modified engines the above figures can only be applied when the modified engine’s brake horsepower is known or can be estimated. The fitting of alternative carburettor(s), extractors or an alternative ignition system
may result in some power increase and but an increase resulting from these modifications on their own would usually not be considered significant. However, when combined with higher compression, a modified cylinder
head, larger valves, performance camshaft etc, they would be very likely to result in a significant power increase. Similarly fitting a supercharger to a V8 engine, or fitting a supercharger with more than 5 psi boost to a smaller
engine, would be considered to result in a significant power increase. If in any doubt a VASS Signatory should be consulted.

 

5. Engines
Note – fitting a replacement engine can increase axle loads. It is the owner’s responsibility to ensure that the load capacity of an axle is not exceeded. If the load capacity of an axle cannot be determined any increase in the mass
supported by that axle must be limited to ten percent.

5.1. Replacement engines

5.1.2 Vehicles built after 1948 and before 1969 Any unmodified engine offered as an option by the vehicle manufacturer for that model, may be fitted. Any additional equipment fitted to the vehicle as standard equipment by the manufacturer with that engine option must also be fitted. Any unmodified engine of the era that is of the same configuration and that does not result in a significant power increase over that of the original (or of that of any optional engine offered by the vehicle manufacturer for that model) may be fitted provided:
it can be accommodated in the space originally provided for the engine without structural modification (save for engine mount bracketry); and that the mass supported by an axle of the vehicle does not exceed its rated capacity; and
where the mass supported by an axle is increased by more than ten percent it can be demonstrated that brake balance and effectiveness has not been adversely affected.

5.1.3 Vehicles built after 1968 VSI 8 requirements apply.
5.2 Modified engines
5.2.2 Vehicles built after 1948 and before 1969 Modifications such as fitting extractors, alternative inlet manifolds, alternative carburettor(s) or ignition systems etc are permitted. Generally modifications typical of the era are permitted. However, modifications resulting in a significant power increase will require certification.
5.2.3 Vehicles built after 1968 VSI 8 requirements apply.

 

[pomwah]

Ah, we're at cross purposes. I'm looking at getting an engineer's certificate for my Mk2 and full registration I've already got a Morris 1100 on a club permit at the moment and I've yet to get it changed to my name. I'm going through the process of getting a roadworthy, now that the club permit requirements have changed. When it is finally roadworthy I'll decide whether to keep it on a permit or go for full registration.

 

It's an interesting discussion though, I wonder if the Spitfire engine that competed in the Le Mans 24 Hours could be considered as an optional extra?

 

Cheers.

[NeilR]

I spent the last 3 days at Phillip Island for the Historic racing and it would be nice to have something that could be used in regularity etc and for other club motorsport. Since this is the first car my 13 YO son has shown any interest in I am eager to get it together for him to use.

[pomwah]

I'm not surprised your lad is interested in it Neil, it's a pretty looking thing, with or without a chassis. Have you any idea where the shell came from?

[NeilR]

Not really. It seems to be a one-off in many respects, but there has been a massive amount of work and that does not support the idea of a one-off FG body - too much effort for one of them.

3 months of effort has revealed nothing. I have put photo's in this next issue of Race Magazine and maybe that will help.

[pomwah]

Good luck.

[egret]

never underestimate the amount of effort some people go to.  I was at a talk at the weekend where a guy after WW2 made a boat out of newspaper and aerolite glue as that was all he had available.  He made a giant cigarette rolling machine which allowed him to roll 14000 foot long tubes from which to make a 1 off boat.  It took him years, but lasted about a decade of regular sailing, only being burnt when it was damaged in transit from the boat show! http://goo.gl/MRgnRp