Steve Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Hi all, Does anyone have any recommendations for a "racing" style battery to save weight? I've got the bug for making my TR6 quicker. Engine is 185bhp and I don't want to touch it further if I can help it. The diet so far is: magnesium wheels, no bumpers, high torque starter, don't want to spoil it with GRP panels but thought maybe a lighter battery would be a good option? Also need to look at denso alternators. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpitmkIIICPH Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Take a dump before going out in the TR thats real weight saving That + the battery and your sorted!! Pics please (of the car) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetecspit Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Please do not start on the path of lightness, it can ruin you and the car. Spare wheels, carpets, lightweight seats and all that can be done easily, and probably a better choice than a tiny battery. If you really want, the optima and odessy (check spelling) and other gel batteries are good, but for the few kilos you are saving you won't notice the difference. As above, try taking the spare out and seeing if you notice. Real way forward is a light alloy engine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 Yes zetec you are right and the light alloy engine should be from ROVER. It is impressive, the whole V8 engine is in the range of just the TR6 block with crank. Anyway the Optima, where I use the red top in 44Ah, is a good choice both for weight and reliability and may be placed due the better weight balance in the rear trunk behind the wheel. No loss of acid and always in good shape for more than 6 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 15, 2013 Author Share Posted April 15, 2013 Thanks for the replies, I will have to weigh the whopper which is on the car and maybe I can fit something a bit smaller. For the outlay £100-150 it looks like there could be a saving of 7kg at least over my present item I suspect. Don't want to spoil the car or change the steel panels but all these little bits add up, before you know it you can be at least 50kg lighter. The straight 6 makes a TR for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 15, 2013 Author Share Posted April 15, 2013 (98)TR6.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted April 15, 2013 Share Posted April 15, 2013 That's one tidy looking machine! Noice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triumph-V8 Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 Great look, great performance! Is it a 2.5 litre? Power is achieved at very low revs. How did you manage that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 (edited) Don't forget that a 'racing style' battery is intended to satisfy series regs, and to buffer the alternator output while driving, not to start the car. Obsessive racing weight-savers who fit such a battery will also fit an Anderson plug, so that a fullsized battery can be plugged in to start the car. It is not a road car mod. or at best it is a most inconvenient one. If you really want to save weight, you must compromise on comfort. All that trim must come out, lighter race seats, door window winding mechanism and fixed plastic on the door. GRP bonnet and boot lid will also save a lot. Any of these will save more weight and be less inconvenient than a 'race style' battery. John Edited April 16, 2013 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted April 16, 2013 Author Share Posted April 16, 2013 Hi John, Can I assume http://www.amazon.co.uk/Braille-Battery-B14115-Advanced-Lightweight/dp/B004DDI1AG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366120148&sr=8-1&keywords=braille+Battery#productDetails or http://www.amazon.co.uk/Braille-Battery-B2317-Advanced-Lightweight/dp/B004DDNHO6/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1366120148&sr=8-9&keywords=braille+Battery for instance then would not be suitable? I need to check my existing battery but think it could be circa 16kg, so perhaps there is scope to fit a smaller one given I run a high torque starter. The car does not have any drains i.e. when switched off aside from a Kenlowe fan perhaps, therefore with a denso alternator i'd of thought it would cope? Triumph-V8 - thanks, it is a 2.5 I don't know the precise spec but think its: balanced, 40 thou hepolites, race 6-3-1, weber 40s, good compression. Perhaps with a new cam there would be even more! Having been in a few other cars and know of some other tuned triumphs that have used the same rollers, the seat of the pants performance backs up the graph fyi. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 16, 2013 Share Posted April 16, 2013 I still think that a 15A/hr battery is very small, for a large, six cylinder engine and hi-torque starter. But it's your shout. It won't save weight, but housing the battery in the boot aids weight distribution. JOhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 For racing? Does anyone produce a Li-Ion product, got to be better than a load of lead and acid being flung around a track? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire6 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 For racing? Does anyone produce a Li-Ion product, got to be better than a load of lead and acid being flung around a track? I have looked at this. Some problems with Li are: Strict charging requirements. Balancing problems during charge and discharge as you would need more than one cell in series. Not able to supply high currents like lead can. Not being able to get 12volt nominal. Most Li have built in electronics to control abuse. You can buy without the electronics and use at own risk! I have seen some Li battery packs for automotive use but cheaper to get a lead battery! I am fitting a Li to my car, but only as a stable power supply when the lead battery is cranking. It's a single 3.7 volt cell at 3amp hour with a dc to dc converter to bring it up to 13.8 volts with 2 amps available. I could use the dc to dc converter fed from the lead acid but want power if the battery is kaput. Cheers, Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 II am fitting a Li to my car, but only as a stable power supply when the lead battery is cranking. It's a single 3.7 volt cell at 3amp hour with a dc to dc converter to bring it up to 13.8 volts with 2 amps available. I could use the dc to dc converter fed from the lead acid but want power if the battery is kaput. Cheers, Iain. I didn't understand ANY of that! Prinicipally, why you want another power supply, and why it needs to be stable? AND It has been the Li-lon batteries that have grounded the Boeing Dreamliner, 'coz they kept on catching fire. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 It has been the Li-lon batteries that have grounded the Boeing Dreamliner, 'coz they kept on catching fire. John This is really factually inaccurate. The "problematic" battery of the Boeing is/was not standard Li-Ion based at all. It was a (newish) technology which anyone in the industry has suggested would go fail. Ironic when you read the press stuff from 2008 eh? " As Boeing activated the electrical system of its 787 for the first time last week, the airframer acknowledged that it was exploring a change to its power system for production aircraft due to longevity concerns. Boeing will move away from its original lithium ion battery design for its main and auxiliary power units, flight-control electronics, emergency lighting system and recorder independent power supply. Instead, Boeing is investigating the incorporation of manganese inside the lithium ion battery to boost service life." http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-looks-to-boost-787-lithium-ion-battery-service-life-224663/ "Boeing may have changed to lithium manganese in 2008, but...... There are suggestions the battery cells in question have Lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2) cathodes. Around 10 years ago - when the 787 design process started - that was the only material available. The Supplier, GS Yuasa, was awarded the contract in 2005 (by Thales, who did the system integration)." "The power distribution and charging circuits .... made by Thales" http://batteryuniversity.com/ http://postimage.org/image/xy32u0ksb/ "Lithium based batteries vary hugely in their resistance to thermal runaway. For example Lithium ferro magnesium phosphate batteries are very much safer than the more conventional Li Ion batteries used in computers, at the expense of a slightly lower power density" They chose to go against industry advice and use this unsafe/untested technology anyhow, costing them billions** for a very banal & stupid sourcing decision for a battery. When you see the "breakdown" of the plane you can understand why... (Competence is inverse proportion to the size of the company right?). **The graphic shows all of Boeing's 50 flagship 787 Dreamliners grounded resulting in shares in Boeing have fallen by 6.3 per cent over the last two days. An estimated $2.7 billion has been wiped off the company's stock market value. Some airlines ( Qatar ) are already demanding some of their money back. You can read about it here:- http://www.capitolconnection.net/capcon/ntsb/ntsb.htm# April 11, 2013 Public Forum: Lithium Ion Batteries in Transportation Day 1 of 2 April 12, 2013 Public Forum: Lithium Ion Batteries in Transportation Day 2 of 2 There's 83 pages currently on the issue on Pprune btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 GT: a modern renaissance man. Well done. I know progress is to be admired and desired but sometimes, just sometimes, I'd rather be safe. Cheers, James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millstone10 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 For my tuppence worth. They look good and they are leak proof. This is the Odyssey PC680 with up to 680 cranking amps and turns this mildly uprated 2l easily. It has uprated compression but I dont know how much ( ) except the engine numbers were fully machined off. Cranking is far better than the standard battery it replaced. I keep it on a CTEC conditioner now after one "sulphided" up due to an earth leak discharging it over a long lay up period. That applies to all batteries though. The difference is about 8kg compared to around 16kg on a standard battery. That would make an impressive poop! but whether you'd feel it on the driving?... Being as there's about 8000cal's in a KG fat, running at 10 min miles means about 80 hours for that weight loss so about 20x 4hr marathons... better get started then... A while back I did some tests with lipo batteries in an underground mine by crushing them with a bucket (a 12t bucket), The flames were impressive. I dont think I'd put them in a car unless they are under the drivers seat as if they catch fire in a crash you'll be gone anyway. Certainly not near a Triumph engine of fuel tank. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Years ago I used the black dry cells, and widened the battery bracket to accept them wired in series. I can assure you, any 12V starter that got faced with 24V turned the engine over pretty darn quick, however if you really are wanting to be nutty, you'll stick batteries in the boot and get yourself/weld in a scrap XJS battery holder/clamp and loom. That gives you some cheap thick cable which is quite enough to turn a V12 over from a battery in the boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire6 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I didn't understand ANY of that! Prinicipally, why you want another power supply, and why it needs to be stable? AND It has been the Li-lon batteries that have grounded the Boeing Dreamliner, 'coz they kept on catching fire. John Hi John, When I said stable I meant I want the voltage to as much of the car electrics as I can held at 13.8 Volts, even when the car is cranking or engine not running. Things like panel lighting (LED's), tail/side lights (LED's), wind screen wiper motor and anything else that is influenced by a changing battery voltage. Also I want power to the security systems if some **** tries to disconnect the battery... I must add; I have still to install this setup but have all at my house and ready to install when I get my car back. Cheers, Iain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 dc to wind screen wipers while cranking? Voltage drop to the ignitin coil while cranking is the most important since the out put voltage is a ratio of the input voltage. Have you looked at the alternator output to see if ac has been completely recified to dc? What is the harmonic distortion of a Lucas alternator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 When, or if ....... http://news.illinois.edu/news/13/0416microbatteries_WilliamKing.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Should have kept my mouth shut - apart from GT cramming a Boeing down my throat, I have charging problems. Battery won't start the cra more thanonce or twice withour a recharge, even with a godd run between Battery volts - no change on revving. Alternator diode check - no current on charge wire while engine not running - I think that's right? Any other diagnostic checks? Any potential damage to alternator if I run the engine with it unconnected, to check directly if it is putting out charge. Then there must be some fault between alternator and battery. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Healthy, fully charged battery should be at least 12.6 volts, probably a bit more. Running you should get 13.5 - 14.5v although a bit is less is permissible at idle especially if there is some load on. Presumably the ignition light comes on with the ignition switch and goes out when the engine starts? Don't run the engine with the battery disconnected unless the exciter wire is also disconnected (even that is not completely risk free). Shouldn't be any voltage on the exciter wire when the engine/ignition is off, but just because there isn't doesn't indicate a healthy alternator. Several possible faults including brushes worn down, one or more main rectifier diodes popped or internal regulator duff. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millstone10 Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Any other diagnostic checks? John These Ctec chargers are great for rescuing batteries. I had a very similar sounding issue to yours. I replaced the alternator... no change. So on advice a local store recovered the battery by putting it on the ctec charger for over 4 days. Worked a treat for another 1 1/2 years. The chargers are not cheep but I now have a charging plug permanently in the car and kept connected while its in the garage. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pomwah Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Agreed, I have one, works well and has "rescued" more than one battery for me, including SLAs. Cheers, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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